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On not pronouncing the Name...

On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » 11 Feb 2009, 14:51

A Catholic friend of mine sent me this link today. (I hope it's ok to post it here--it's addressed to the Bishops' Conferences.) As I understand it, it's a directive to Catholic Churches to stop pronouncing the actual name of God: the Yod He Vav He (the names of the letters that comprise it) or so-called 'Tetragrammaton.' According to my friend, no one pronounced the name before Vactican II, but it's crept into practice since then.

I'll admit that hearing the Name (and I have heard it from Christian pulpits) makes me cringe. Once, when I read a passage for a wedding or something, the Bible in the church even had the Name written out. I just substituted 'Lord,' which, fortunately, didn't seem to upset anyone.

True, once upon a time even Jews might have pronounced the Name, but even if that's so, it hasn't been the case, probably, for a couple of thousand years. In fact, if you're used to reading biblical or prayer-book Hebrew in a synagogue setting, you wouldn't even think to pronounce the Name. Your brain automatically switches the Name to either Adonai (which means 'Lord') or HaShem (which means 'the Name.) As a rule of thumb, we use Adonai in synagogues and for formal blessings and prayers. Outside of the synagogue you're more likely to hear HaShem.

Does this really matter? Is saying or not saying the Name that big a deal?

I think so. First of all, no one's even sure of the correct pronunciation--or the exact meaning. All we know is that the Name is related to the verb 'to be' and that it has to do with the ground of being itself. I think there's an argument to treat such a name with profound respect--and to approach it with such reverence that we hold it in the depths of our hearts rather than on our tongues.

That said, I think it's possible to get carried away in reverence. Since 'God' is not the Name, I write 'God' out, rather than following the example of some Jews who prefer 'G-d.' And some people won't use any word for God unless they're actually praying. So, for example, they won't say the word Elohenu, 'our God,' outside of a formal context. They say 'elokenu' instead. That leads to the joke about the seriously devout fellow who went into a restaraunt and ordered a ginger kale...oh, never mind. :wink:
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Bluegoat » 11 Feb 2009, 16:56

Hmm, as a non-Jew, I have always associated the idea of not pronouncing God's name in Judaism with not depicting him in images. I assumed they were two versions of the same thing, and were meant to remind people or emphasize the way in which God was beyond our understanding. I don't think anyone ever actually told me that though.

As a Christian, I don't see the issue as being quite the same, since I think Jesus was God, but since he was actually also a person, he could be depicted or named. So for me, this suggests we can depict God within the images he has given us to work with, both pictorially and in print. So perhaps we call God Father, or show him as a father-like figure. However, words on a page are more of an abstraction that a pictorial representation, so I think there is a natural protection in using them that can prevent people from taking images too literally. I believe, though I don't know much about it, that this is the approach used with icons in the Eastern Church, they have an abstract quality to them on purpose.

As far as the name of God goes, I think that if God actually gave it to us, we could use it. Is it actually supposed to be his "real" name? That doesn't seem terribly plausible to me - I think any communication God has with us involves him "translating" so to speak.

I'd be interested to know what the RC explanation for this is.
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

JRose:

You've managed to start this discussion in an excellent spirit, stating your feelings without setting it up so that those who might feel differently won't necessarily feel a need to turn it into a debate.

First of all, reverence for God's Holy Name is very important. Our society comes close to practically ignoring the Commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name." - Ex 20:7 People treat the very word "God" as if it were a curse word. You wouldn't do that with the name of another human, would you? But we'll do that to God? Bizzarre ... and sacreligious.

But from the Christian perspective, or at least from the Protestant Sola-Scriptura perspective, the commandment only says not to misuse His Name. It does not say, "Never speak His Name." In fact, we see the people in the Torah speaking his name all the time.

Quick note for those few who do not know: In most English, Christian translations of the Old Testament, you will see that the word "LORD" is often, but not always, spelled in all Capital Letters. Whenever you see this, you know that in the Original Hebrew, the actual word was the "Tetragramation", or the constanants that spell the actual name of God: "Yod He Vod He" - Usually transliterated into English as "YHWH". The practice of rendering it as "LORD" when translating it into other languages dates back at least to the time of the Septuagint. Most of you probably knew that, but if you didn't this discussion might not make a whole lot of sense.

So, if you read through the Old Testament, you see the people speaking His Name, though the Godly always do so with the greatest of reverence. An example I found practically at random is 1 Samuel 23:10-11. So from our perspective, speaking His Name, or as close to the pronunciation as we can actually get, would not be sin if it were done with the greatest reverence and respect we can give Him.

In fact, we would take such passages as 1Chronicles 16:8 and Psalm 105:1, both of which say, "Give thanks to the LORD, call on his name; make known among the nations what he has done," to be an actual command to speak His Name in both prayer and preaching His Word.

So, that's the perspective of many Protestants on the subject. Clearly it is quite different from the perspective of many Jewish people, both Christian/Messianic and otherwise.
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » 11 Feb 2009, 17:51

Hey Bluegoat & Archenland Knight!

I'll repsond to both of you in turn:

Bluegoat,

The Catholic Church, like Judaism, regards the Yod He Vav He as the "proper name" of God (as the letter to the Bishops' Conference I linked above puts it.) Actually, I kinda assumed that all Christian churches so regarded it--but perhaps that's not the case. (I know much less about Protestantism.)

In the Hebrew Bible, there are many different ways of referring to God. The Yod He Vav He (as AK points out, you'll see it rendered in English as YHWH, but I'll replace it with HaShem from now on) is possibly the most famous and Jews and Catholics regard it as His 'real' name. But there are other ways of referring to Him.

God reveals Himself to Moses not only as HaShem but as Ehyeh asher Ehyeh, which is probably best translated as "I will be what I will be." (I don't know where the common English translation--I am that I am--comes from.)

El simply means God. Not the Name, just God. El Shaddai is a somewhat obscure reference--El, again, means God, but Shaddai is difficult to translate. It may be a place-name, or it may have the connotation of 'Mighty' or 'Overpowering.' It may have something to do with mountains...and some people even think it's derived from a word for, believe it or not, breasts.

There's Elohenu, which means 'our God.' And there's Elohim, which is generally used as a singular to mean 'God' but is technically a plural word. (It's used in the plural sense in Exodus 20:3--You shall have no other gods--elohim--before me.) There are, however, other examples of a plural word being used as a singular in Hebrew.

There are many more ways besides these. All these different ways of referring to God have different connotations. (And they have great significance to scholars who get involved with all the who-wrote-what-when debates.)

And, unfortunately, you lose most of this in translation. I know most of us aren't scholars and don't have the time to learn Biblical Hebrew--but we should, if we take the Hebrew Scriptures seriously. And if we can't do that, we should at least get a translation with mounds of footnotes that gives in-depth information on the Hebrew.

(I know you Christians have it harder, of course, since you should be learning Koine Greek too in order to read the New Testament!)

However, I will say this. Biblical Hebrew is not as hard as most of us imagine. How easy it is depends on how easily we pick up languages...but either way it's not rocket science.

Archenland Knight,

I agree that Jews probably pronounced the Name more freely at one point--but probably not since at least the 3rd century BCE. (It may still have been pronounced by the Kohanim within the Temple after that, but it hasn't been since the Temple was destroyed.)

The tradition of not pronouncing the Name, however, is over 2000 years old. Moreover, no one's sure of the pronunciation. Moreover still--well, you're dealing with an ineffable name that refers to the ground of being and existence itself. I still find that a convincing argument for not speaking it--especially since we can't even be sure of getting the pronunciation right. :anxious:

When I read the Bible in Hebrew (or the prayerbook) my eyes see the Name, but I'm just used to automatically substituting Adonai or HaShem. And when I pray non-formal prayers--that is, not official 'brachas' or blessings--I usually use HaShem. (As in, "HaShem, please get me through this awful day!" when things are going wrong.)

I would never criticize anyone for pronouncing the Name from a Christian pulpit. But I honestly don't think they should--especially as so many people, not just Jews, feel that it should not be pronounced and are likely to be offended.But I can chalk it up to a genuine--and understandable--difference of opinion.

However, it really bothers me to hear the Name bandied about casually--usually by people taking their first Religion course in college. (But sometimes by experienced professors.) And in that, I think we can agree!

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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » 11 Feb 2009, 19:30

JRose wrote:However, it really bothers me to hear the Name bandied about casually--


On that, yes, I think you're right. His Name should not be treated casually.

As far as the Tetragrammation (Yod He Vod He) being the "proper name" of God, I can't speak for the Protestant Church as a whole. The way it was presented to us was that the Tetragrammation is how The Name is recorded in scripture, and that today we do not know how it was pronounced. From that perspective, the Tetragrammation represents The Proper Name of God.

However, I see that as mere semantics. It's how Moses and the Prophets recorded His Name. For the purposes of Scripture, it is, in fact The Name, and we should treat it as such. But to me, redering the letters in English, as opposed to their original Hebrew characters, is a little bit of a once-remove from the actual Name. (And, in Hebrew, is it "Yod He Vod He", or is it "He Vod He Yod", since Hebrew is written right to left? Just curious.)

As you say, there are many Christians who do not feel The Name should be prounced. I must say, I don't think I've ever pronounced it myself except in private prayer, or when teaching on the subject of The Name itself. And even when teaching, doing so with the caveat that no one today can really be sure how The Name was pronounced in Moses' time.

One thing I do try to do, however, is to make sure everyone knows that it was not pronounced, "Jehovah". That pronuciation is what happens when you add the vowel points from "Adonai" into the constanants from the Tetragrammation(this was to remind people to say, "Adonai" instead of pronouncing The Name) and then start trying to translate into Latin-descended languages. It just gets all mangled up.

Truthfully, lately I find hearing the word "Jehovah" represented as God's name more offensive that any honest effort to pronounce it properly with the due reverence and respect. :brood:
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » 11 Feb 2009, 20:03

archenland_knight wrote:And, in Hebrew, is it "Yod He Vod He", or is it "He Vod He Yod", since Hebrew is written right to left? Just curious.


:toothy-grin: Actually, it's Yod He Vav He in Hebrew...it just sounds more like Yod He Vod He when you pronounce it fast enough. (My bad--I'll correct it above!) And sometimes you'll see Yod He Vod He written out instead of the more correct Yod He Vav He. And, yes, that's the correct order even in right to left Hebrew!
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » 11 Feb 2009, 20:29

archenland_knight wrote: As you say, there are many Christians who do not feel The Name should be prounced. I must say, I don't think I've ever pronounced it myself except in private prayer, or when teaching on the subject of The Name itself. And even when teaching, doing so with the caveat that no one today can really be sure how The Name was pronounced in Moses' time.


P.S. In theory (and without igniting a war about dating the different books and/or strands of the Torah), it was common even before Moses's time. I know there's a passage in Exodus that makes it sound as if the Name is being revealed for the first time--but that's not the case. It's used freely before that in Exodus and frequently in Genesis. In fact, Moses and Aaron use the Name when speaking to Pharoh before that famous passage!

(I forget the exact location of the passage, but I'll look it up later. It must have been from two Torah portions ago, 'cause we went over it two weeks ago in Torah Study. :wink:)

But, of course, Moses is the traditional author of the Torah...never mind, I just caught up. :tongue:
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » 11 Feb 2009, 21:26

JRose wrote:But, of course, Moses is the traditional author of the Torah...never mind, I just caught up.


That is, of course, why I used the phrase "Moses' Day". :wink: The earliest instance I can find of someone using The Name in Genesis is Eve in Genesis 4:1 -

GE 4:1 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man."

Of course, the narrative of Genesis uses The Name from as early Genesis 2. Which draws an interesting contrast between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, since Genesis 1 always uses words like "Elohim" to refer to God, and Genesis 2 uses The Name in every instance.

And, horribly, I've forgotten what we studied about that. :stunned: :ashamed: :blush: I'll have to look it up.

Perhaps the contrast is due to the fact that Genesis 2 deals with God's dealings with people, and as such He would need a Name. When He's just creating galaxies ex nihlo and writing the laws of quantumn physics, His Name need not be revealed.

But now, this brings up another question. When Eve spoke His Name in Genesis 4, and when other people this early on spoke His Name, in what language did she/they speak it? This was before the incident at Babel, before the languages of the people were confused. If she wasn't saying it in Hebrew, was she simply using some form of the verb of being in her own language, or what?

There is a belief among a small number of Christians that Hebrew was the original Adamic language, and that after Babel, God allowed it to be preserved in the one branch of humanity that would become the Hebrew people. I don't know how common this belief is among Jewish scholars, or if they would all consider it nonsense, but I'd be interested to know if you've come across such a theory in your studies.

Personally, I think she was speaking a language now lost forever, and that her use of The Name was related to the verb of being in her own language. However, there is no way to prove such a thing, so if someone disagrees with me it won't bother me in the least.

Now, out of curiosity and hoping not to get too far off topic, what precisely is a "Torah Portion"?
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Karen » 11 Feb 2009, 21:49

archenland_knight wrote:Of course, the narrative of Genesis uses The Name from as early Genesis 2. Which draws an interesting contrast between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, since Genesis 1 always uses words like "Elohim" to refer to God, and Genesis 2 uses The Name in every instance.

And, horribly, I've forgotten what we studied about that. :stunned: :ashamed: :blush: I'll have to look it up.


Probably the Documentary Hypothesis, for which the two creation stories provide some evidence.
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » 11 Feb 2009, 22:26

Karen wrote:Probably the Documentary Hypothesis, for which the two creation stories provide some evidence.


While I think the theory was mentioned in my classes (I know I've studied it somewhere), Pentecostal theology tends to focus on what God was communicating to us by directing the development of Torah so that a contrast is noticed between ch. 1 and 2 of Genesis, not on what the physical mechanism that brought such a contrast about was. That's what I was thinking of when I mentioned, "what we studied".
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » 12 Feb 2009, 02:35

archenland_knight wrote:Now, out of curiosity and hoping not to get too far off topic, what precisely is a "Torah Portion"?


How ironic! I used the term 'Torah portion' because I thought it would be understandable, as opposed to the Hebrew term 'parsha.' (Well, actually, it's parashah or something--but here in the U.S. everyone just says 'parsha.')

A parsha--or Torah portion--is the section of the Torah read on a particular week of the Jewish liturgical year. We read the entire Torah in one year, in order. This week's parsha, for example, is Yitro (Exodus 18:1-20:23.)

(A few synagogues prefer a three year schedule to read the entire Torah--and that is how the ancient Alexandrian synagogue apparently organized their parshas. But the majority are on the one year schedule.)

Each week we also read a haftarah. That's a reading from the books of Nevi'im or Prophets. The haftarah is supposed to have some sort of connection to the parsha.

archenland_knight wrote: Perhaps the contrast is due to the fact that Genesis 2 deals with God's dealings with people, and as such He would need a Name. When He's just creating galaxies ex nihlo and writing the laws of quantumn physics, His Name need not be revealed.

But now, this brings up another question. When Eve spoke His Name in Genesis 4, and when other people this early on spoke His Name, in what language did she/they speak it? This was before the incident at Babel, before the languages of the people were confused. If she wasn't saying it in Hebrew, was she simply using some form of the verb of being in her own language, or what?

There is a belief among a small number of Christians that Hebrew was the original Adamic language, and that after Babel, God allowed it to be preserved in the one branch of humanity that would become the Hebrew people. I don't know how common this belief is among Jewish scholars, or if they would all consider it nonsense, but I'd be interested to know if you've come across such a theory in your studies.


Hmmmm...um, creation 'ex nihilo' isn't necessarily a Biblical concept. The Hebrew doesn't really suggest it. At some point, Judaism adpoted that teaching, but many people feel that it's imposed on the text. This gets into some sticky translation issues--but, as I understand it, no less an authority than Rashi supported the translation that seems to go against creation ex-nihilo. (On the other hand, Maimonides, I think, supported the idea of ex-nihilo.)

At any event, the text can (and many people think should) read something like, "When God began to create the heavens and earth--the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water--God said, "'Let there be light...'" etc.

So the Hebrew can suggest God bringing order to chaos rather than creating from nothing. (The word for 'deep' as I recall, is related to the concept of chaos.) As the Jewish Study Bible comments,

The Jewish Study Bible wrote:To modern people, the opposite of the created order is 'nothing,' that is, a vacuum. To the ancients, the opposite of the created order was something much worse than 'nothing.' It was an active, malevolent force we can best term as 'chaos.' In this verse, chaos is envisioned as a dark, undifferentiated mass of water.


I think this is a fascinating and controversial subject for both Jews and Christians. It'd make for a great discussion--except that we'd all need to be Hebrew scholars to do it justice! I think Judaism, over all, leans against the idea of creation ex-nihilo, but I'm sure you can find Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist scholars, rabbis and laity on both sides of the issue. I imagine the same is true in the different varieties of Christianity.

(One of the things I find so absorbing about Torah study is the fact that the more you learn, the more you realize there is to learn. Whether you believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses, or whether you believe that many authors and editors had a hand in it over centuries, every word seems filled with significance. Every word matters. And you can get drawn deeper and deeper in...This is, undoubtedly, true of sacred texts from many different religions. But this one happens to be mine :cool: )

And now onto the language of Adam and Eve. Personally, I view all three creation stories in the Hebrew Bible (the two in Genesis and the remnant of a story scattered through a few Psalms that seems to concern God destroying a dragon) as sacred myth. Within those myths, I'd absolutely say that the language Eve (or Chavah) spoke was Hebrew. Traditionally, to Jews, Hebrew is the sacred language--the language God used to form light and other wonders of creation (as far as I know.) In fact, in some of our legends it's the only language the angels speak. (God can, of course, speak all tongues--but He likes Hebrew best :wink: )

But I'm guessing--I'm not sure. I'd be willing to bet heavily that according to traditional Jewish teachings Adam and Eve spoke Hebrew. Please, what other language would God possibly have taught them? :rolleyes: But I'll have to check into it.

Edit: here's a little blurb by Wiki. I'd guess, though, that there are more than one opinion on this matter among Kabbalists, who tend to go very heavy into the meaning and numerical significance behind each Hebrew word in the Torah:

Wikipedia wrote:Traditional Jewish exegesis such as Midrash (Genesis Rabbah 38) says that Adam spoke Hebrew because the names he gives Eve - "Isha" (Book of Genesis 2:23) and "Chava" (Genesis 3:20) - only make sense in Hebrew. By contrast, Kabbalism assumed an "eternal Torah" which was not identical to the Torah written in Hebrew. Thus, Abulafia in the 13th century assumed that the language spoken in Paradise had been different from Hebrew, and rejected the claim then current also among Christian authors, that a child left unexposed to linguistic stimulus would automatically begin to speak in Hebrew.[1]


Note: Isha means woman; Chavah is the Hebrew name that's translated as Eve.
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby friendofbill » 13 Feb 2009, 21:42

I've no wish to be a "devil's advocate," but the question occurs to me: could the Infinite, Eternal, Ultimate Ground of All Being, the One Who fills and sustains a universe 15+ billion years old and so big that the numbers cause the mind to shrivel and hide, The Almighty ... even be said to "have a name?"

Is not a "name" simply a set of syllables uttered to call to mind that which they are, by common assent, signifying?

God advised us that his "name" is I AM, which is a verb, not a descriptor. Surely the Tetragrammaton is no more His "name" than "God" is His name. To Abraham, His name was El or El Shaddai ... and yet no one balks at pronouncing those names. He was variously called Elohim (a plural, interestingly enough) and/or Adonai. One needs some symbol, either verbal or visible, by which to convey from one mind to another the concept the name or symbol is supposed to signify. My point, then, is that to pronounce any of the names of God, including the Tetragrammaton, is merely to pronounce some sounds men made up so they could talk about God. If He has a "name" at all, it is the verb I AM.

Or so it seems to me. JMHO.

There is much to be learned about name mythology; a good place to start is with Ernst Cassirer's Language and Myth, or with Suzanne Langer's Philosophy in a New Key.

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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » 14 Feb 2009, 03:37

FriendOfBill wrote:could the Infinite, Eternal, Ultimate Ground of All Being, the One Who fills and sustains a universe 15+ billion years old and so big that the numbers cause the mind to shrivel and hide, The Almighty ... even be said to "have a name?"
Is not a "name" simply a set of syllables uttered to call to mind that which they are, by common assent, signifying?
God advised us that his "name" is I AM, which is a verb, not a descriptor. Surely the Tetragrammaton is no more His "name" than "God" is His name.


We may not understand it, but God said of the Tetragrammation in Exodus 3:15, "This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

So, that particular Name is to be especially revered, by His Soveriegn Will, not by the decision of any human.

Of course, from the Christian perspective, His command that this was to be the name by which He was remembered from generation to generation is more of a reason that we should speak His Name in the proper context, and in the most reverent manner. Not speaking His Name at all would seem to somewhat defeat His purpose in giving it.


JRose:

Though some of it has gone a little off topic, our conversation has been most enlightening. I typed a couple of rather long replies, but kept feeling like they went even farther off topic. I think I can some up most of what I wanted to say by simply pointing out that Christians would consider the concept of Creation "ex-nihlo" to be a Biblical concept because of passages from the New Testament, such as the first chapters of both The Gospel of John and Paul's Epistle to The Colossians.

As you say, it would be a fascinating discussion, especially since we would be approaching it from slightly different angles. But first, we both need to become fluent in Biblical Hebrew, and I'll need to learn Koine Greek. :tongue:
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Bluegoat » 14 Feb 2009, 12:35

archenland_knight wrote:
FriendOfBill wrote:could the Infinite, Eternal, Ultimate Ground of All Being, the One Who fills and sustains a universe 15+ billion years old and so big that the numbers cause the mind to shrivel and hide, The Almighty ... even be said to "have a name?"
Is not a "name" simply a set of syllables uttered to call to mind that which they are, by common assent, signifying?
God advised us that his "name" is I AM, which is a verb, not a descriptor. Surely the Tetragrammaton is no more His "name" than "God" is His name.


We may not understand it, but God said of the Tetragrammation in Exodus 3:15, "This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

So, that particular Name is to be especially revered, by His Soveriegn Will, not by the decision of any human.

Of course, from the Christian perspective, His command that this was to be the name by which He was remembered from generation to generation is more of a reason that we should speak His Name in the proper context, and in the most reverent manner. Not speaking His Name at all would seem to somewhat defeat His purpose in giving it.


My feeling is that you are both right here. Yes, God has given us a name which especially represents him and which he wants us to use. But no, it doesn't really encompass him, because we couldn't take that in.

But there are really two ideas of names; one is that they are simply a sign of a real thing; the other point of view says that each thing has a "real" name, given by God. Some people think that if we knew the real names of things, we would then have power over them. But a thing's real name would have to contain it's essence in this view, and I can hardly imagine humans grasping God's essence. So at most, I suspect it would be a sign of God's essence.


Karen:
Though some of it has gone a little off topic, our conversation has been most enlightening. I typed a couple of rather long replies, but kept feeling like they went even farther off topic. I think I can some up most of what I wanted to say by simply pointing out that Christians would consider the concept of Creation "ex-nihlo" to be a Biblical concept because of passages from the New Testament, such as the first chapters of both The Gospel of John and Paul's Epistle to The Colossians.

As you say, it would be a fascinating discussion, especially since we would be approaching it from slightly different angles. But first, we both need to become fluent in Biblical Hebrew, and I'll need to learn Koine Greek. :tongue:


The other view, I suppose, it that creation is eternal. But even then, would creation still be from nothing in that God did not fashion it from some sort of base matter? The only difference I can see in a universe that was eternal would be that there was no beginning in time, whereas Christians believe that there was. If we say God created it from something that was already there, that stirs up a lot of very thorny issues.
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Karen » 14 Feb 2009, 14:27

I think you guys meant JRosemary, not me. :smile:
I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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