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Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 2:23 am
by Brian
Just ran across an striking quote attributed to the early Church Father - Polycarp - Bishop of Smyrna at the time of his martyrdom in AD 155 . (I'm old school... I refuse to use BCE or CE). When the Roman Proconsul who was tasked with either getting Polycarp to renounce his faith or be executed, the 86 year old Polycarp is said to have responded in part..

"Change from better to worse is not a change allowed to us."

Very challenging and convicting perspective from one who was executed for his faith in Christ. I can only pray that for myself, I allow Christ to continue to change me for the better regardless of external circumstance.

In Christ alone,
Brian

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 2:25 pm
by Gina
I was visiting a friend yesterday, and she has old photographs of her ancestors all over her house. She said that she keeps them on display to remind her children of the men and women who came before them and brought their family forward, not only out of poverty, but spiritually. She tells them that they owe it to these people not to drag their family back into a sinful lifestyle. It's an interesting thought, anyway.

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 7:29 pm
by postodave

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 8:38 pm
by cyranorox
Polycarp and Ireneus are favorites of mine.
Postodave, you may recall that the Kingdom is described as the day without evening; that the Good is ultimately contrasted by other Good, as note is to note, flute to string: not music to noise.

IMHO - H, for a change - openness is misunderstood if it is admired as a quality of mind or character to keep. Its value is completely dependent on where you are in your story.

you need to be open enough, long enough, then close firmly. That's how you get married or join the Church; it's also the meaning of the parable of the Pearl of Great Price.

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 9:10 pm
by cyranorox
Polycarp and Ireneus are favorites of mine.

Postodave, you may recall that the Kingdom is described as the day without evening; that the Good is ultimately contrasted by other Good, as note by note, flute by string: not music to noise.

IMHO - H, for a change - openness is misunderstood if it is admired as a quality of mind or character to keep. Its value is completely dependent on where you are in your story.

you need to be open enough, long enough, then close firmly. That's how you get married or join the Church; it's also the meaning of the parable of the Pearl of Great Price.

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 20th, 2009, 10:19 pm
by postodave
If we are talking about commitment I can see that. But I never saw my wedding day or my commitment to Christ as an ending. But them I'm not as near to sainthood as Polycarp was.

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 21st, 2009, 12:35 pm
by hammurabi2000

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 21st, 2009, 4:12 pm
by postodave
I feel there is more to explore here but I find that whereas Polycarp was speaking rhetorically I want to talk about human psychology. Now the simple fact is that those parts of ourself that we identify as bad those of which we are ashamed may not be bad at all. We may simply have internalised values that make us distrust an important part of ourselves. Carl Rogers puts this very strongly when he says the counsellor must be willing for the client to choose goals that are antisocial, immoral or regressive because only so can he release the capacity for constructive change. It seems that God has had a similar approach, at least that is the way many people have interpreted the story of Eden. Jung talks about integrating the shadow the weak and primitive side of our person. This is what I have been suggesting. Cyranorox talked about this in relation to a marriage commitment but when a marriage is going through a difficult patch to refuse to even consider divorce as a possibility is denying oneself the very path that may if followed honestly lead to renewed commitment. Should law really be that much stronger than grace? Just a thought.

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 22nd, 2009, 5:48 am
by deadwhitemale

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 22nd, 2009, 11:37 pm
by cyranorox
regarding divorce, that is always a change from better to worse, and an evil, but permitted and reasonable when things have gone too far wrong. In effect, it is the social and public expression of a change to the worse that is already in the past. I only say that it is no part of the ideal.
Is it grace against law? a man is diminished when he breaks or abandons his vows or oaths, This is not development or growth, though often presented as such. I'd look long and hard at what proposed itself as grace in that context - much false praise and interested support is given to those who leave marriage, for example, to take a lover or to seek some individual goal. It is not a foundation natural or congenial to spiritual growth, though of course with repentance and acknowledgement of the entangled wrongs, progress can be attained.

The role of a counselor is limited to the mind and emotions; when they shade over into spiritual claims or presume to offer spiritual guidance, I think they are out of their professional domain.

We do not know all our sins; we often feel guilt over mere social blunders, embarassments, defeats, etc. and this is evidence of a poorly developed conscience. This is my situation. It is hard to train the feelings to shrink from real evil and not from mere loss of face, failure or being outplayed.

If we dont always judge rightly, we can still look at what is plainly bad, and reject it- and this cannot be evaded by reference to cultural differences ['but the Inuit/Maori/Suomi/etc consider it virtue...']. I cannot easily think of a part of myself of which i am ashamed, yet on reflexion I should see as not bad at all. Can you offer at least two examples?

re: AD, since we are tied to Latin, I propose ADM, anno domini mei [if that is the grammar], year of the Lord of me

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 24th, 2009, 10:23 pm
by postodave

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 24th, 2009, 10:29 pm
by postodave

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: February 28th, 2009, 2:42 am
by rusmeister

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: March 1st, 2009, 10:34 pm
by postodave

Re: Change of mind from better to worse...

PostPosted: March 1st, 2009, 11:06 pm
by mitchellmckain