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The Church IS or the Church DOES?

The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby Stanley Anderson » February 23rd, 2009, 6:56 pm

As I've read comments from other threads here about the Church, I find that I would like to ask, really in a non-argumentative way, how people view the Church, the Body of Christ, from their point of view. Obviously, I have a Catholic point of view and see it differently (I assume) from many Protestant points of view. And in the process of posting this, I want to say what at least one side of that Protestant view seems like to me (since I am sure it varies from church to church in Protestant circles. I would guess that my (intentionally simplistic) impression of the Protestant's view of the Church will seem wrong to them, and my reason for posting that impression will be for the express purpose of being corrected (though I suppose one possible, though unlikely, reply might be "yes, that's essentially correct, Stanley").

As I said above, I see this as being primarily non-argumentative -- more as simply an explanation of how various groups see themselves and how they see others and how they think others see themselves and so on. But of course I won't mind either if this thread should then turn into a debate and discussion (or "argument" in the good sense of the word) about this subject. Such things, I think are healthy and interesting and informative if done with charity and respect, even if no one comes out convinced of the "other" side.

Anyway, so. Here is what I want to say (and remember that I'm making this intentionally simplistic and unfocussed so that people can clarify it more properly):

The impression I have of the -- I'll call it "strong" Protestant view of the Church (to distinguish from more "liturgical" churches like many Anglican and Lutheran views that may be closer to the Catholic view) -- is that the "The Church" is primarily simply a "collection" of people who are identified as Christians, not unlike, perhaps, any other "arbitrary" collection --say, people who collect matchboxes, or whose last name begins with "Q". As such, they may gather together every once in a while for a kind of family reunion, where they raise a toast to each other or talk about mutual relatives and long-lost cousins or even start fights, but really, they're just as happy when the weekend is over and they can get back to their business back home.

Aside from the common factor of matchbox collections or initials, they don't identify the group as something that goes out and "does" things as a group -- at least consciously. They may very well individually happen to do many of the same things and "happen" to accomplish things that only large groups can do, but it is not so much a conscious "organized" effort as it is a sort of serendipitous happenstance or a "led by the Holy Spirit without us actually being aware of his particular purposes" result that is seen only in retrospect after the fact.

Again, I've written the above perhaps somewhat provocatively to elicit responses to correct and clarify this vague impression.

(And remember that I'm using here some of my own memories of being in a "strong" Protestant church in college and for some time after, though I suppose I always did feel a bit uneasy in those sorts of places. For instance, I remember, even shortly after becoming a Christian in college and being still pretty unknowledgeable in many areas, nevertheless having the distinct impression from reading the NT of some kind of extreme importance of taking Communion. The church I was attending only had Communion services once a month and it seemed by chance that I was always unavoidably gone on those Sundays the first couple of months, and I remember being terrified that I might happen to die without ever having received Communion because I hadn't "gotten around to it". I distinctly remember thinking "Why don't they have Communion more often so that we can be sure to partake of it regularly?")

Well anyway, part of the purpose of this thread is to say not only how it seem that others view the Church but to say how I see the Church. And being Catholic, the contrast seems to me (but of course correct me if it seems wrong to any of you) that Catholics view the Church as not only a collection of those people who happen to be Christians, but that it is also an active visible "entity" that Christ intended to use (via the Holy Spirit) as his primary instrument for carrying out the "physical effects" of his Resurrection and "mechanics" of our Salvation, if you will, by means of the Church structure and its teaching and its administration of the Sacraments and such. That's probably badly worded, but my intention is to say that the contrast is, as the thread title suggests, that the Church not only IS something, but that it DOES something actively and consciously and visibly and is something its members can look to and follow for guidance and assurance and verification, and, most importantly, for the means of their transformation into being part of the Body of Christ through the Sacraments.

And all this is not to suggest that the Church is a sort of "Here, Jesus, let me help you out there" sort of thing, but rather that the Church is the very manifestation or realization of Christ's plan of Salvation in us. I've used the illustration elsewhere of the Catholic Church appearing to Protestant eyes from a distance, as a bunch of fancy but artificial decorations laid upon a Christmas tree (and of a tree chopped down and supported and propped up by a metal stand at that). But that when one gets up close to examine the tree "from inside the Church", as it were, one discovers, first, that the tree has not been chopped down, but that it is actually rooted in the ground and alive and growing. And second, one discovers that the "decorations" that seemed from a distance artificial and "separate" from the tree and only laid on top, turn out to be flowers actually growing out of the very branches of the tree.

And in fact that those flowers are not just there to be "pretty", but are actually the tree's way of blossoming forth and propagating into the world. And that not only does it "happen" that way, but that we can see it happening, and that we are supposed to see it happening, and that it is our duty to be part of that "visible" flowering of God's plan, yes, acting "individually" as the opportunity avails us, but more importantly, also as an intentional "portion" of that flowering tree, doing our part to help it grow "as a tree" and not as a simple collection of branches and leaves and flowers that happen to be located together over the plot of ground.

Ok, so there. I've given my impression of what the Protestant view of the Church seems like to me, and also what I think the Catholic view of the Church is, and the contrasts between them. Of course I don't for one minute "really" think that Protestants see the Church only as an arbitrary "collection" that doesn't actually "do" anything (though I do think it is often hard for them to "point" to anything in particular). I've set this up as a means for that -- admittedly artificial and provocative -- impression to be corrected and discussed and clarified. Again, purely for informational purposes, if you like. But also open to debate and discussion if anyone feels like it (I'll probably not press the initialization of the debate side, but may respond -- with delight and enjoyment -- if anyone wants go in that direction).

Any thoughts?

--Stanley
…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby Bluegoat » February 24th, 2009, 12:12 am

I'm not a strong Protestant, but from my understanding of their position on the nature of the Church, your description is really totally wrong.
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby Stanley Anderson » February 24th, 2009, 2:06 am

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby mitchellmckain » February 24th, 2009, 2:37 am

I am reminded of a portrayal I have made of creationists and evolutionists talking about tomatoes in a grocery store: The creationists say, "look at how perferctly round and red they are, obviously these have been designed by the best engineers." The evolutionist says, "I don't see any engineers only the laws of nature and so it is the laws of nature that must have made these tomatoes." Of course neither see the relationship between the tomato plants and the farmer which is what is really where the tomatoes came from.

So what does this have to do with the topic? Well the strong protestant believe that the body of Christ is the body of all Christians gathered and administered by Christ as its only head, the Holy Spirit as its only teacher and our Father in Heaven as our only pope. Stanley's "portrayal" of this reminds me of the evolutionists in my anecdote saying, "I don't see any Christ, Holy Spirit or Father in heaven so the Protestants must be saying that the body of Christ is a bunch of disconnected and unrelated people who call themselves Christian.

Christ has told us that we should answer the door and see Him in the stranger asking for shelter, how much more should we be able to see Him in our fellow Christian? Therefore I ask Stanley, can you or can you not see the work of Christ in the members of the Protestant churches? Most of the Protestants can see the work of Christ in the Catholic churches and however you may want to say well of course they can, I say turn it around and look at yourself. Remember what Christ said about strangers and ask yourself why you cannot see the work of Christ in the Protestants? But if you do see the work of Christ in the Protestants then how can you act like the Protestant claim, that the body of Christ is administered by Christ Himself, is not saying anything at all.

Look I am quite happy for you that you have found a relationship with Christ with the help of the Catholic church, and I praise God for all the work He has done with the Catholic churches. The truth of this does not threaten me in the least because I know the relationship that I have with God and where Christ wants me in His body. I have and I will continue to reccommend the Catholic churches to people, where its approach to Christianity seems more suitable to their way of thinking. I have and will continue to fight those who misrepresent the beliefs of the Catholics with a bunch of nonsensical anti-Catholic rhetoric, by quoting to them passages from the Catholic catechism which I have purchased.
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby friendofbill » February 24th, 2009, 1:11 pm

Hm. All this is JMO, of course, but I see two definitions of "church" in the NT, both used by Paul in various circumstances.

There is the Church -- capital C -- defined as "the Body of Christ." It includes all who believe in the Name of Jesus and are thereby "saved," per Peter's statement: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." I believe it is this Church to which Jesus referred when He spoke of gathering all of His sheep into one fold, and prophesied that "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Myself." It was his prayer "that they all be one, as you (God) and I are one." The unity of Jesus with the Father could not be defined in physical or organizational terms, nor can our unity with and in Him.

And there is the church -- small c -- defined as a group of believers assembled in one place at one time for the purpose of mutual support, instruction, discipline and teaching; i.e., the "church at Ephesus" or "the church that meets in your house."

"Churches" in the second sense exist because people are not unifiormly of the same psychology, and need different "approaches" to worship that make the Word acessible to them. Being a "high church" Anglican,. I "need" the liturgy, the Sacraments and all that to keep re-centering me on the One Whom it is all about. Others find that type of worship meaningless and would rather sing praise songs and speak in tongues. Tha's cool. In The Shack, Jesus is represented as saying "I will travel any road to find you."

Behind it all, there is The Church. I envision The Church as a great aquifer, from which "the churches" all draw their sustenance, like houses with their individual wells drilled into the aquifer. The Water of Life is the same regardless of which kitchen you enter to drink of it. None of us exist as Christians unless we are first and foremost incorporated in the mystical Body of Christ, drinking of the Water of Life, integral to the body as a branch is integral to the vine. It is The Church that we see in Revelation, waiting below the Throne for the full revelation of the King of Kings. At that point we will finally be beyond "individual psychology" and we shall behold Him face to face, and see Him as He is.

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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby Stanley Anderson » February 24th, 2009, 4:03 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby mitchellmckain » February 24th, 2009, 11:22 pm

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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby Stanley Anderson » February 25th, 2009, 3:57 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby mitchellmckain » February 25th, 2009, 8:50 pm

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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby Amy » February 26th, 2009, 2:08 pm

I find this topic interesting because I've always sort of had similar thoughts about the Catholic church. Many of the people I've known are pretty much of the opinion that they can live any way they want, Monday through Saturday, and as long as they show up at Mass on Sunday they're ok. It seems like a remarkable disconnect. Of course, I know lots of protestants who do the same, so it's really silly of me to associate it with one type of Christianity.

I suppose that since protestants do not have one central governing body for protestants worldwide, it can seem less "organized." I assure you this isn't the case. Our church, and many like it, offer a wide range of ministries for serving and participating in the life of the church. But one distinct problem I see is that protestant churches seem not to feel that it is important for the church itself to reach out into the darkest corners of the community. There is a strong belief that if you want to feed the poor, you should just go out and do it, or maybe take a few others with you. We wholeheartedly support missionaries, and maybe even send a few right from the church. We might send a group to Africa for a week or 10 days, or we might send an individual family off with our blessings, but you would rarely see a church set up an ongoing ministry in a foreign country. We seem to think that's what "organizations" are for. Unfortunately, I believe this comes from a mistaken fear that if we "do" to much as a church, we might be guilty of one of two errors. The first is that we might start to believe that salvation comes from works, not by faith (forgetting, of course, that Christ himself, not anything we do or say, is the source of our salvation). The second is more complicated.

Many protestants (at least the very conservative ones) have a strange notion that if you are suffering, it must in some way be either your fault or at least you should be able to deal with it/resolve it yourself. "I'll pray for you" is a common reaction to almost anything, but not as common to hear "What can I do to help you?" There's a strong attitude that homeless people, for example, got themselves into their circumstances and it isn't the church's responsibility to help. And anyway, aren't there "organizations" for that sort of thing? There is a fear, in some people, that if they help, they might be somehow feeding into the problem.

I do, in fact, try to do my part in helping others. But I'd like to see the church get better at it too.
Amy
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby Stanley Anderson » February 26th, 2009, 4:40 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby mitchellmckain » February 27th, 2009, 3:06 am

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Re: The Church IS or the Church DOES?

Postby hammurabi2000 » February 28th, 2009, 12:29 pm

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