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The Dead and the Living

The Dead and the Living

Postby deadwhitemale » February 26th, 2009, 3:39 pm

I found this interesting.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/emls/09-1/ristdead.html

Especially this part:

' For theological reasons, during 'the English Reformation' this changed. In Bowyer's words, the English church "formally severed diplomatic relations with the Other World, ceasing to invoke the aid of the saints in heaven, and ceasing to recognise its responsibility towards the souls of the dead in purgatory." [15] England's sixteenth-century journey from Catholicism, through Lutheranism to Calvinism - according to Nicholas Tyacke the characteristic theology of the English Church by 1600 [16] - destroyed the idea that the living and the dead were an inter-dependent community, Calvinism's doctrine of double predestination in particular rendering the idea of praying for the dead redundant.

Nor were such changes limited to theory: in the Prayer Book of 1549 - to be used by church-goers in their weekly attendance at service - congregations continued to speak to the dead directly, but in the Prayer Book of 1552 all communication between the living and the dead had disappeared. As Duffy puts it, "There is nothing that could even be mistaken for a prayer for the dead in the 1552 rite." [17] Though the Marian interval saw a brief reversal of such trends, in Philip Morgan's stark phrase, from 1552 "The dead, it seemed, must shift for themselves." [18]

To adapt Alan Sinfield's term, 1552 was a major 'faultline' of English Renaissance history. Prior to that point, the dead and the living officially inhabited the same community; after it the dead were officially 'beyond the grave.' This faultline is even seen reflected in the divided mentalities of individuals.

As late as 1642, Thomas Browne could write that in younger days he had been tempted by a heresy "which I did never positively maintain or practice, but have often wished ... had been consonant with truth, and not offensive to my religion, and that is the Prayer for the dead." Moreover, though he never "positively" practised such prayer, Browne adds that he could "scarce contain my prayers for a friend at the ringing of a bell," or even "behold a corpse without an orison for his soul." '


DWM
"It is when we try to grapple with another man's intimate need that we perceive how incomprehensible, wavering, and misty are the beings that share with us the sight of the stars and the warmth of the sun." -- Joseph Conrad, Lord Jim(1899?)
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Re: The Dead and the Living

Postby archenland_knight » February 26th, 2009, 4:03 pm



...I'm just sayin ...
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Re: The Dead and the Living

Postby deadwhitemale » February 26th, 2009, 5:22 pm

"It is when we try to grapple with another man's intimate need that we perceive how incomprehensible, wavering, and misty are the beings that share with us the sight of the stars and the warmth of the sun." -- Joseph Conrad, Lord Jim(1899?)
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Re: The Dead and the Living

Postby Stanley Anderson » February 26th, 2009, 5:48 pm

Hey, you ain't seen nuthin' yet until you get to the big can of fatter and juicier worms that is opened by simply mentioning the words "Mediatrix" or "Co-Redemptrix". :smile:

--Stanley
…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: The Dead and the Living

Postby rusmeister » February 27th, 2009, 1:01 am

Duplicate post
Last edited by rusmeister on April 30th, 2009, 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dead and the Living

Postby rusmeister » February 27th, 2009, 1:08 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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