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Liberty vs. Freedom vs. Slavery

Liberty vs. Freedom vs. Slavery

Postby deadwhitemale » 03 Mar 2009, 07:59

I freely acknowledge that relatively little of my thinking on any subject is original. There have been several people whom I have thought of as "masters" (usually posthumously, as Lewis thought of George MacDonald), and much of my thinking is derivative. As someone (maybe Lewis) said, "It was once assumed that the student reproduced the master," or words to that effect. So I often quote or cite those who said something first or said it better than I could. Like this:

' ... the terms liberty and freedom are not equivalent. Freedom is a physical condition denoting the absence of bonds or bondage.

Liberty, on the other hand, is a political condition certified by the social right to do whatever does not infringe upon the liberty of your neighbor. You are free once you have jumped over the fence, but liberty is not a characteristic of the nanny state in which the government tells you what you must or must not do in all aspects of your life.

A man may live a quite satisfactory life without either freedom or liberty, if he is that sort of man. Such a man manifests the slave personality, and may be kept happy as long as he is sure of "bread and games."

Men - some men - may be willing to fight for liberty, but they will not do so until they understand exactly what is involved. This is how it is possible for us to see catastrophic wars fought gallantly by men who do not know what they are fighting about. It has been my extraordinary good fortune to be involved in various sorts of wars, and I have discovered both good men and bad on both sides.

I was fully exposed to the theory of government at a very good university, and for this I am grateful. I have fought without restraint alongside and against both good men and bad, and it has been possible to observe the triumph of the human spirit for both good cause and bad.

In much of the 20th century, the Communists established a system of political commissars in their armies, but this system worked only to a modest degree, for it is very difficult to recruit and train a man to handle the job of political commissar effectively.

George Washington faced a formidable task in trying to explain to the colonists that they should risk their lives to get a king off their backs. Lincoln had an equally bitter task, and was on at least one occasion required to turn his weapons against his own side. Today it is not easy to explain to the troops that the political consideration of liberty is worth the sacrifice of one's life. It can be done and it has been done, but it is never easy.

Most men will fight well for hearth and home, as long as they fully understand the threat. Beyond that, Clausewiz says, war is the continuation of politics by other means. This sort of discussion is essential to military morale, but certainly it is easier said than done.' -- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper (1920-2006)

Neb Nugent (looking at a motto engraved inside Capt. Nemo's stranded submarine Nautilus): Captain... what language is this?
Captain Cyrus Harding: It's Latin. "Mihi libertas necessest."
Lady Mary Fairchild(translating): "I must have liberty." -- Mysterious Island (1961)

"It is when we try to grapple with another man's intimate need that we perceive how incomprehensible, wavering, and misty are the beings that share with us the sight of the stars and the warmth of the sun." -- Joseph Conrad, Lord Jim(1899?)
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Re: Liberty vs. Freedom vs. Slavery

Postby timoconnor » 28 Jun 2009, 18:21

God's kingdom is the rule of freedom... God's freedom leads us to the fullest degree of freedom that is available to us - it is FOR freedom that Christ sets men free - not to return to the limitation of slavery to failure. Freedom is the ability to be rewarded with power to determine your destiny - for your desired destiny to be fulfilled. The greatest consideration in finding ultimate success is the most free and successful person - God. Our desires need to be ordered by God's desires for us, if our desires are to fully succeed. Freedom comes through our degree of dependence on the complete freedom of the full independence of God the Father. No one but God the Father is justly independent of all others - so-called independence in a creature may indicate rebellion against God and lawlessness all of which is dependent on God the Father Who creates and operates all things - both good and evil. So infact, we are all in complete dependence on God the Father - whether willingly or not. Only the Father is ever fully independent but those who are like Him - in their complete dependence on His ideal will for them, they are independent of those opposing Him.

The price of God's rule of freedom is the obedience of producing good, exceedingly pleasing and ideal fruit, that endures and becomes mature, so that we reap in return for the fruit, the rewards of sovereignty, authority and jurisdiction when the seasons come. Obeying God is necessary to secure maximum freedom. Lawlessness or licentiousness is 'false freedom' - whilst it involves temporary freedom exercised to oppose God's ideal desires, it leads, overall, to a lessened experience of freedom or influence. Lawlessness is a choice to determine a path with less experience of freedom overall, so, overall in one's existence it amounts to less freedom. So freedom is not the right to do as we please but the right to be pleased with the good that God can do through us.. So... to become securely really free (Jn 8:31-36) means to expect from God with loving faith in Him for the good of God and the creation - which is to subject your initiative and control to obey God's ideal will - so then He brings you greater degrees of freedom and influence.

Christians are to be subject to each other in the fear of Christ - to serve each other as we are all priests, and we each have authority to command each other - as we are all kings. So Christians need to strengthen the capacity to cooperate from the position of maximised freedom - freedom to master and to serve in submission to those who master you. Cooperation means more efficient success - more freedom. The greatest amount of freedom in the immediate-future rule of God comes to those saints of God who voluntarily give away their whole self to God in His enslavement to all in the order of their worthiness in God's sight...

SO the conclusion is that to be truely free actually means being a complete slave of the One who completely determines all things...
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Re: Liberty vs. Freedom vs. Slavery

Postby Jservic2 » 08 Jul 2009, 07:20

SO the conclusion is that to be truely free actually means being a complete slave of the One who completely determines all things...

It might just be semantics, but I really do not agree at all. To be a slave to god makes no theological sense. Why then free will? I believe god has created us individually for his enjoyment, similarly to the way we enjoy the company of our friends. It is always through a relationship and never reflex. We obey because we love.

the One who completely determines all things

This is probably where my disagreement is based in. The first part really only stems out of determinism vs. free will.
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