Into the Wardrobe

I've been thinking about prohibitions against usury and the financial crisis. Any thoughts?

It's something I've often wondered about. I know the Christian economist Michael Schluter thinks the usury ban should still apply and so does Prabhu Guptara who is a Hindu disciple of Christ. Unfortunately I'm not an economist so here are some links
http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/media/au ... _interest/
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.c ... erest.html
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:G6 ... clnk&gl=uk
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:Yu ... clnk&gl=uk

If any of that grabs your interest you might like to glance at the work of Bob Goudzwaard
http://www.allofliferedeemed.co.uk/goudzwaard.htm
Especially as I recall some of the stuff in Aid for the Overdeveloped West

Many devout Muslims do not borrow or lend money for interest. For example, some Islamic communities have mutual funds and other investment instruments that do not derive any income from interest. And I've heard that they make interest-free loans available within their communities for buying homes.

I must live in the world as it is. I have almost always made a point of paying everyone everything I owed them, with interest, if any interest was due. "Oh, I pay, I always pay," was a sort of motto of mine, plagiarized from Rafael Sabatini's fictional pirate, Doctor/Captain Peter Blood (who, for a pirate, was uncommonly scrupulous about keeping his word and paying his debts, including ransoms and bribes). But it would go against my own conscience to ever lend money at interest. On the other hand, if my checking account or savings account draws any interest, is that usury also?

DWM

Well, I take dwms point. These products barely exist. There are things we can do - for example we can get involved with Credit Unions - but I don't think we can be too purist about this. Even among Christian economists I don't think there would be a lot of agreement about this. But maybe it will be like fairtrade and take off at some time. I remember when fairtrade meant trying to drink awful coffee and tea bought from reps in local churches but now it is in supermarkets and coffee bars and most people know about it. At least they do here in the UK.

As I understand it, a bank account accruing interest is one of the main examples of usury, because we gain the interest while taking no risk. On the other hand, a venture capitalist who gets a dividend isn't really committing usury - he is an owner.

I found this very interesting article about Chesterton and the Catholic Workers movement - I found his definition of capitalism to be especially interesting.

A few years ago there was a fellow who did a study, developing a personality profile of a corporation, treating it as if it were a person. What he found is that the corporation behaved as a psychopath. The main players in our economy, even bigger than governments, are corporations, and I think that the kind of behavior that we see from corporations fits the profile of a person with no morals. I don't think it's that the people within them are like that, but something about the structure of a corporation does not allow the ethical and moral imperatives of individuals to be taken up into the action of the corporation.

I think Chesterton is right when he says capitalism is not a system where there is private property, but rather a system where a few people have most of the capital and the rest are dependent on them.

He suggests a Christian system would involve every family having enough property to support themselves, but not much more. What is interesting about this to me is that it is very similar to what many Christian groups such as Mennonites do, and they find it is indeed the best system for maintaining a Christian lifestyle. They also do not borrow from banks, but rely on money lent by the community, without interest.

Here in Nova Scotia the co-op movement has traditionally been very strong, and was started by a Roman Catholic priest. Many of them are for specific trades like fishermen, but there are lots of co-op grocery stores and credit unions. Credit unions are of course still part of our financial system, but I am thinking of leaving my bank and joining one instead. There philosophy is much more in line with my own values.

if i am earning interest at 3% and the rate of inflation is 5%, am i really accruing interest?
we live with a monetary system far different from the one of biblical times. we currently live with a fiat system that, at the very least, negates the question of usury in regards to interest earned.
everything around us is almost inherently based on some sort of borrowing. heck, look at our governments. our governments are either engaged in loaning or borrowing (or both) on a massive scale (in relation to their gdp). i see no escape from usury or interest.
without interest (at the very least) any money we 'saved' for retirement would be worthless by the time we got around to spending it.

The Captain: You see, it's... it's no good, Montag. We've all got to be alike. The only way to be happy is for everyone to be made equal. -- Fahrenheit 451 (1966)

" He [Chesterton] suggests a Christian system would involve every family having enough property to support themselves, but not much more."

Well, I like a great deal of what Chesterton said, but I do not consider myself obliged to slavishly and unquestioningly go along with every particular thing he ever thought or said.

Who, exactly -- what commissar or "czar" or "people's committee" will decide for us -- for every family (or individual) -- how much we need -- how much is "enough" -- to support ourselves? Who will enforce this equality, and how?

I sincerely believe that I myself have special and specialized needs in housing, clothing, equipment, and transportation, which no elected official or appointed bureaucrat could ever anticipate, and which I doubt more than a few hundred members of the human race could even begin to understand. It would cost a lot too. If someone says I ask too much, I reply, "Fine, but without what I need to work with -- to do the work I was put here for -- it will not be done. At least not by me. As Gandalf said when implored to start a fire during the blizzard on Mt. Caradhras, 'I cannot burn snow. I must have something to work with.' "

DWM