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An interesting Podcast to think about

An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby Jesse Hove » June 22nd, 2009, 10:21 pm

Just finished listening to a podcast on the Kingdom of God by an Orthodox priest by the name of Father John Hainsworth.

Here is the link!

http://audio.ancientfaith.com/paradosis ... -27_pc.mp3

I loved his theological breakdown of Parousia and its implication for the Gospels. However, I am not to sure how far I would go with his

"If we could unfold our wills to God's completely, just for day we could feel the warmth of God's heavenly light shine on our physical and spiritual being"

Yes the Kingdom is breaking in, yes there is some combination of holy spirit and human agency, but individual edification or perfection, or closeness to God...whatever you want to call it, is scary business. God is transforming us into his likeness, we are not transforming ourselves into his likeness.

In this sense I really do prefer Wright's Preparing for the Kingdom, not building it ideology. As well as his anti-evolutionary anti-regressive society thoughts (the world is not slowly getting better, nor is it slowly getting worse). While Hainsworth points out that we are working with both bad and good people in the Kingdom, I think that "now, not yet" tension needed an extra sentence or two affirming that oh by the way none of us are going to get it perfect until the second coming (we are both the bad and the good guy). And also that God understands we are not perfect and works with that, he chooses as we are, but does not leave us that way. With a greater emphasis on his will, and not our own.

I think this is also where I agree with Wright when he points out that while protestants might need a deeper understanding of transformation, Orthodox could deepen their salvation theology as well. I think a full understanding of Romans Demands it. Perhaps in a pastoral practical sense they have never needed to, but were a much smaller world! I think in order to become a tighter community we need to work on it!

-Jesse
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby rusmeister » June 23rd, 2009, 2:15 pm

Hi Jesse!

Since you yourself are evidently not Orthodox, the only thing I'll say for now is that Orthodox people don't have opinions on their theology (in the sense of teachings). They accept it - or don't, and are subsequently not Orthodox. We can't talk about "deepening our theology" because we didn't make it up in the first place - it was revealed to us - and that the Church HAS the full and correct understanding of Romans, via Tradition which includes the Church fathers, canons, icons, etc.

We can say "I think" about anything that is not dogma. We can't about anything that is. The Church tells us what has been revealed (or if you prefer, we learn it from the Church). We don't tell the Church what to think about theology. Put another way, God tells us - we don't tell Him.

The Orthodox Christian will also say that you need to find and join the Church, and THAT is the only community you should be concerned about being a part of.

But if you like AFR, keep listening! Maybe some things will become clearer further down the road. Even an Orthodox priest is only a fallible man - it is the Tradition that He draws from that is infallible.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby Jesse Hove » June 25th, 2009, 7:58 am

LOL that sure does not leave much in the way of ecumenical dialogue! Could you not say God reveals truth through a human beings reasoning, exegesis, and all creation to develop correct doctrine? Surely everything God has taught you did not plop into the early Father's hands one day? If he did that is wonderful!, and you will have to tell me more. If he did not, then when was the doctrine of the Orthodox church completed with nothing left to answer?

Be patient with me! If it took an incredible scholar like Jaroslav Pelikan to the age of 74 to peel back the "layers of Orthodoxy that were always there", Then I fear I have an almost infinite amount of learning to do! :)

-Jesse
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Re:

Postby rusmeister » June 25th, 2009, 9:13 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Orthodox

Postby Jesse Hove » June 26th, 2009, 6:00 am

Thank you for some clarifications! I agree with your fleshed out idea of completion, I think....to a point...lol. In modern Christianity Anglicans have their Wright and Lewis style theologians that present solid Christian thought in a simple and inviting format to large groups of people, Catholics have their and Henri Nouwen style guys. Who in the Orthodox church would you suggest to read, that write in similar way?

-Jesse
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Re: Orthodox

Postby rusmeister » June 26th, 2009, 3:40 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby postodave » June 29th, 2009, 8:00 pm

So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby rusmeister » June 30th, 2009, 1:17 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby Bluegoat » June 30th, 2009, 2:13 pm

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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby rusmeister » June 30th, 2009, 6:14 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby postodave » June 30th, 2009, 11:38 pm

As I understand your argument Rus:
I had pointed out that Paulos Mar Gregorios, a Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church had suggested that a Christian who refused to learn from those outside the Church was narrow-minded. You countered this by suggesting that the term narrow-minded was invalid and did so by referring to the arguments of Chesterton. Chesterton is someone who is by your reckoning outside the Church. So you demonstrate that it is invalid to say it is narrow-minded to refuse to draw wisdom from outside the Church by drawing wisdom from outside the Church.
I just don't get you Rus. Are you simply saying that those dogmas affirmed by the Church through the ecumenical councils are permanently valid or are you saying something altogether more nebulous about tradition?
So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby rusmeister » July 1st, 2009, 2:10 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby Bluegoat » July 1st, 2009, 1:14 pm

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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby rusmeister » July 1st, 2009, 7:57 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Re: An interesting Podcast to think about

Postby postodave » July 1st, 2009, 10:30 pm

So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
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