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What Was Meant To Be

Plato to MacDonald to Chesterton, Tolkien and the Boys in the Pub.
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What Was Meant To Be

Postby mjmann » October 20th, 2005, 5:59 pm

In The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf tells Frodo about the history of the One Ring. When he describes how Bilbo found the Ring, Gandalf says, "Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be a comforting thought."

As I read this the other night, I found myself thinking - Gandalf is talking about Ilúvatar here; now, granted that the religion of the elves is not an evangelistic one, but why doesn't he tell Frodo about Ilúvatar and the Powers (Manwe et al)? Frodo is not comforted by Gandalf's elusive account of how the Ring came to him, surely he would have been comforted by an account of how there is a god who is the 'father of all' and who will see - according to the Ainulindalë legend - all things turned to good in the end.

Any thoughts?
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re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby Leslie » October 20th, 2005, 7:02 pm

It could be that the hobbits knew about Ilúvatar in their own way, and that no further explanation was needed.

Or, since Men have a different relationship to Ilúvatar than do the elves, it stands to reason that the hobbits' relationship would be different also. Perhaps it was not the doom of the hobbits to have any direct knowledge of Ilúvatar.

Or, Gandalf may have known that Frodo would understand who it was that had meant the Ring to come to him. Bilbo was learned in the lore of the elves, and he may have heard their creation stories, which he would have passed on to Frodo.

Or, perhaps it was not good manners to mention Ilúvatar directly? (Now I may be venturing into heretical extrapolation territory, so I'll leave this be.)
"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
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re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby A#minor » October 20th, 2005, 7:09 pm

Tolkien was trying to keep religion out of it, I think. Of course, being a devout Catholic, he couldn't do that really b/c every bit of LOTR has Christian undertones.
But I think he wanted to avoid making it a "religious allegory" as Lewis did. He was concentrating on mythology and the fairy tale aspect of the stories. He wanted people to read it and enjoy it as a fantasy/mythological history and a good story. So he didn't "clutter it up" with different religious dominations, but just good and evil. Quite simple in his approach really.
"My brain and this world don't fit each other, and there's an end of it!" - G.K. Chesterton
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Re: re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby mjmann » October 20th, 2005, 7:14 pm

Hi Leslie,

We already have one resident heretic in Erekose, but I am sure there is space for another! As for your possible explanations, I like the third one best, although the second makes sense also. The hobbits appear to have no religious background at all, so No. 1 doesn't seem likely.

I wonder if it was hard for Gandalf not to mention Ilúvatar directly. After all, being one of the Maiar he would have seen him face-to-face and no doubt loved him greatly.

MJM
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Re: re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby A#minor » October 20th, 2005, 7:22 pm

"My brain and this world don't fit each other, and there's an end of it!" - G.K. Chesterton
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Re: re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby mjmann » October 20th, 2005, 7:35 pm

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Re: re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby Erekose » October 20th, 2005, 8:36 pm

Call yourself a dog???? I've seen better hair on a lavatory brush!!!
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re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby A#minor » October 24th, 2005, 3:52 pm

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Re: re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby magpie » October 24th, 2005, 4:21 pm

"Love is the will to extend one's self in order to nurture one's own or another's spiritual growth."
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Re: re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby A#minor » October 24th, 2005, 6:41 pm

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re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby Sarah N. » November 3rd, 2005, 6:21 am

I don't know about Gandalf being a Jew, but Tengwar (one of the modes of writting, alphebets, that Tolkien invented) is alot like Hebrew. I took a short course in Hebrew and it helped alot when I started trying to learn Elvish. I never got very far in either language.
Live in the world as if only God and your soul were in it; then your heart will never be made captive by any earthly thing. ~ St. John of the Cross

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re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby Leslie » November 3rd, 2005, 5:09 pm

"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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re: What Was Meant To Be

Postby A#minor » November 3rd, 2005, 5:17 pm

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