"Tolkien Reader" Reading Group

[Finarphin]

Ok, here we are in the middle of On Fairy Stories, so are we talking about it? I'm rereading it for about the sixth time, this time in a different edition, without all my previous underlinings. One thing that strikes me, now that I'm about halfway through, is how smart Tolkien was. Oxford professor. That is really saying something. Not only that, he really knows what makes stories tick. This is a valuable essay, by far the most important and helpful of anything I've ever read on the subject. I especially like the part where he demolishes the idea that willing suspension of disbelief is a virtue in a story.

[A#minor]

Has anyone read the Andrew Lang collections of Fairy Stories? On Fairy Stories was first written with those collections in mind.


I found most of them in my college library, and I loved to read them in between classes (and discreetly in class sometimes ;) ).
I think Andrew Lang has wonderful taste. All of the fairy tales in his books are beautiful.

[A#minor]

Some thoughts:
I'm afraid that I don't agree with Tolkien that Gulliver's Travels should not be included as a fairy-tale.
Lilliputians or not, diminuitive or not, they are still far-off lands of mystery and splendor, etc..., and therefore to be included in the Faerie realm, I believe. Well, if I ever meet the old Prof, I won't argue the point, but still....

I do agree with him that the usage of "a dream" to explain away a fairy story at the end is sickening. I hate those stories that end with..."she woke up and found it was all a dream." Fooey on that. The only exception that I can think of is, as Tolkien pointed out, Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, and Carroll only manages that because Alice is nonsense from beginning to end; which is, of course, why we love it.

[Monica]

Tolkien says that "the road to Fairyland is not the road to heaven". Certainly the legions of Lord of the Rings fans who are not remotely Christian testifies to this. But in some cases Fairlyland can be the beginning of the road to heaven -- as in C.S. Lewis's case.

What about the Gospels as being a kind of Fairyland? Note what Tolkien says elsewhere about Fairyland: It is full of wonder and beauty, sorrow and adventure, but not much information. Isn't this like the Gospel stories? Jesus appears mainly as fully-made, without a personal history, and proceeds to turn water into wine and raise the dead. But nobody knows what colour his hair is or what he eats for breakfast. Don't we go to the Gospels, at least some of the time, to find wonder, not facts.

[Monica]

[A#minor]

[A#minor]

Sorry if we're getting a little behind, but I'm reading Bronte's Villette at the same time. I'm trying to catch up with Leaf by Niggle this weekend.
Everybody still here?

[Adam Linton]

Thanks for checking, A# minor; I'm in something of a similar situation. The educational ministries in my congregation are in high gear at present in general -- and I'm also having to devote extra time to a new Sunday School series that starts two weeks from tomorrow. But I should be able to catch up on our reading group here by the end of this week-end (I'm loking forward to some clear time after tomorrow's services.)

Regards.

Adam L.

[Monica]

[A#minor]

Thoughts on Leaf By Niggle

I remember the first time that I read Leaf by Niggle, I was so confused. I really had no clue what it meant, especially when those doctors made poor Niggle work or sit alone in the dark.
Now of course, having read a Tolkien Biography and knowing more about his outlook and his views about his own writings and about subcreation, I can understand the allegory.

I find it strange that Tolkien wrote this story b/c he always insisted that he hated allegory of every kind. I think it's important that Tolkien wrote it as a sort of break from writing LOTR when the hobbits had reached Bree, and Tolkien was really sort of lost and confused as to just what sort of book LOTR was turning out to be.

I love this line as Niggle begins to paint the tree - "Strange birds came and settled on the twigs and had to be attended to." I think Tolkien is really referring to Strider here. At the time Tolkien was still unsure as to whether Strider was friend or foe, and certainly no idea as yet of making him a king.

"He had to work hard at stated hours: at digging, carpentry, and painting bare boards all one plain colour."
I wonder if this would be the equivalent of research, writing out lectures, and correcting exam papers and essays.

"You could go on and on, and have a whole country in a a garden, or in a picture (if you preferred to call it that)."
This definitely resembles Lewis' idea in the Last Battle of the garden opening into another Narnia, and the inside being bigger than the outside. Does anyone know if Lewis had already written LB at this point, and if Tolkien had read it? Perhaps not.

Do you think that Parish is somehow akin to Lewis? In the beginning, he's a nuisance, but in the end Niggle realizes that Parish actually contributed to his painting and still has a lot more to contribute to the real land of the Tree. If Parish does mean Lewis, then I find it funny that he is lame. Maybe a hint of Tolkien's view on some of Lewis' "lame" writings?

Who are those First and Second Voices? Perhaps God the Father (the Judge), and Jesus Christ (the Redeemer)?

I love the ending lines. It's so very jolly. :D

[Adam Linton]

[Monica]

[A#minor]

[lostentwife]

It’s funny I am also reading something else at the same time ‘C.S.L- The Four Loves’. I have also been away. Sorry I missed the discussion on Fairy Stories.

I grew up in the same catholic tradition as Tolkien and where most people see allegory throughout his work. I have not. I think however that Leaf by Niggle comes closest.
I must say I was surprised to read your thoughts on Leaf by Niggle A#minor. I always thought that Tolkien loved Trees especially for there own sake. I thought that nature and art were just other diverse parts of himself. Yet, it was a very interesting and a more likely idea about Strider. :)

I disagree with your comparison of Lewis’ idea in the last Battle. I think Lewis’ worlds are worlds that you come upon, worlds that already exist. It’s just a matter of finding them. Also, they have only one creator…God. Whereas I think Tolkien is trying to explain his idea of subcreation more fully. Where creative ability, no matter how fruitless it may seem, has its value to God. It may be part of God’s bigger picture. You could make a visual comparison of course, but I believe them to be completely different kinds of places. I’m sure I’m not explaining well, A more inward place rather than external. I’ll leave it there.

Parish is Lewis (he hee hee) funny! Maybe if they were arguing at the time… definitely funny.

What I found interesting was the organization of this society. Imagine being literally responsible for your neighbours’ welfare! :p

Still trying to figure out this part
‘Put him away? You mean you’d have made him start on the journey before his time?”
Yes, if you must use that meaningless old expression. Push him through the tunnel into the great Rubbish Heap” that’s what I mean.’

It that suggesting that everyone gets killed at a specified time in this society?
If so I wonder what Tolkien was thinking about at the time. Does any one have any thoughts?

[Theo]