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Alternate history fiction in Middle Earth

Plato to MacDonald to Chesterton, Tolkien and the Boys in the Pub.
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Alternate history fiction in Middle Earth

Postby Steve » November 24th, 2006, 2:33 pm

Psalm 139:17 How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them!
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Postby Erekose » November 24th, 2006, 8:47 pm

Call yourself a dog???? I've seen better hair on a lavatory brush!!!
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Postby A#minor » November 25th, 2006, 5:02 am

Now, now, Erekose... Don't lets get carried away here. :wink:

I guess if Sauron had won the battle then all of middle-earth would eventually have become exactly like Mordor; which, if you remember from Silmarillion, was what Sauron's master, Morgoth, was trying to accomplish from the beginning to undo all that the Valar had tried to create in accordance with Eru's song and plan for the world.
"My brain and this world don't fit each other, and there's an end of it!" - G.K. Chesterton
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Postby Erekose » November 25th, 2006, 5:54 pm

Call yourself a dog???? I've seen better hair on a lavatory brush!!!
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Postby Lirenel » November 28th, 2006, 1:30 am

I agree with Erekose. I think even if Sauron had won, there would be resistance by those who remained true to the good side. If Sauron completed his domination, likely it would mean Ragnarok (as Tolkien liked to put it) and the remaking of Arda by Eru with all evil overthrown.

Of course, a complete victory for Sauron would not have been written in the Song, at least not with Eru in charge. The Athrabeth Finrod a Andreth talks about Eru's plan for the Incarnation and the defeat of Morgoth and his followers. (kinda puts a damper on the heresy, though. :wink: )
The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life, of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1

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Postby The Pfifltrigg » January 5th, 2007, 2:33 am

False ideas may be refuted indeed by argument, but by true ideas alone are they expelled. — Apologia Pro Vita Sua: Cardinal Newman
Freedom lost and then regained bites with deeper fangs than freedom never in danger. — Cicero
You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them. — Ray Bradbury
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Postby Lirenel » January 5th, 2007, 3:30 am

The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life, of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1

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Postby The Pfifltrigg » January 6th, 2007, 12:01 am

It was only Earendil's Silmaril (that is, the one that Beren stole) that made it to Doriath. But if you'll remember, the Arkenstone (like the Silmarils) made an Elf-king stand up at its mere sight. Why he wouldn't have recognized it is easy: the dwarves cut it after they pulled it out of the ground. In either the Books of Lost Tales or the Silmarillion it says that the Silmarilli were unmarrable by craft, but this one had been underground since then (if it's the same stone Maedhros held) for the entire Second Age and a large part of the Third. I do not think it's in the Silmarillion directly, but the LT describes the stones of Feanor as glowing with their own internal light---from the Trees, of course. Gandalf was probably already familiar with the Arkenstone, whether he "recognized" it or not, and would probably have known what it was already. It seems very Gandalf-like to conceal the nature of the stone---if it was not itself a threat, as the ring turned out to be---in order to keep covetous minds ignorant who would otherwise overturn the world to get it. Again. Therefore it was enough that it remained the Arkenstone of Thrain and was buried with Thorin in his tomb under the mountain. Out of sight, out of mind, and most importantly out of reach.
False ideas may be refuted indeed by argument, but by true ideas alone are they expelled. — Apologia Pro Vita Sua: Cardinal Newman
Freedom lost and then regained bites with deeper fangs than freedom never in danger. — Cicero
You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them. — Ray Bradbury
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Postby Lirenel » January 6th, 2007, 3:37 am

The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life, of whom shall I be afraid? - Psalm 27:1

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Postby A#minor » January 6th, 2007, 4:20 am

"My brain and this world don't fit each other, and there's an end of it!" - G.K. Chesterton
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Postby The Pfifltrigg » January 8th, 2007, 10:05 pm

The Silmarils were cursed by Mandos after the Kin-Strife and the rape of the white ships of the Teleri. They burned the hands of Feanor's sons because by their violence (that culminated in the overthrow of all Beleriand at the end of the First Age by the intervention of the Valar) they had forfeited their claim upon the light of Arda. The stones were not themselves evil.

As to whether they could be cut after being underground, remember: they were in the older accounts made from glass. Special and wondrous glass, but nonetheless glass. Also, from the fall of Maedhros to the finding of the Arkenstone was 5440 years.
False ideas may be refuted indeed by argument, but by true ideas alone are they expelled. — Apologia Pro Vita Sua: Cardinal Newman
Freedom lost and then regained bites with deeper fangs than freedom never in danger. — Cicero
You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them. — Ray Bradbury
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