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PostPosted: July 15th, 2007, 8:25 pm
by A#minor

PostPosted: July 16th, 2007, 6:15 pm
by nomad

PostPosted: July 16th, 2007, 9:20 pm
by A#minor
I've read up through Chapter XI now. Here are some more thoughts:
Major Spoilers for those who haven't read this far!

Chapter IX
1. "But Beleg would not abandon Turin, and despairing himself he aroused hope again in Gwindor's heart..."
I have to wonder what Beleg said to Gwindor that could kindle hope in a heart so long hopeless and without light in the caves of Angband.
Also, I'm amazed at the strength of Beleg! He's just recovered from terrible wounds, journeyed a long way, and seen his dearest foolish friend captive; but even as he despairs himself, he has the words, the courage, the wisdom to give someone else hope, probably thereby sparking a little hope within himself. They say when you are sad or depressed, the best thing you can do for yourself is to cheer up someone else who is depressed.


2. "But now in the camp beneath the Orcs were roused... but no search was made for him [Turin], for they were filled with terror by the thunder that came out of the West, believing that it was sent against them by the great Enemies beyond the Sea."
There are two possible ways of looking at this: either the Valar, possibly Ulmo, really did send weather to confuse the doings of Morgoth and his Orcs; or the Orcs are just superstitious and scaredy cats. Maybe both.

I wonder what other Orc superstitions there are. Maybe they won't fight on Friday the 13th. Maybe orcs don't walk under ladders. Maybe they shun black cats. They're afraid of lightning evidently. Any other ideas for orc superstitions?


Chapter X
3. "Gwindor answered...."You think of yourself and of your own glory, and bid us each to do likewise; but we must think of others beside ourselves..."
I think Gwindor had it exactly right. Turin is selfish as he has shown again and again. I don't think he once does a selfless act to really help his friends or family.


Chapter XI
4. Turin's treatment of the messengers from Cirdan and Ulmo:
Turin has just gotten too big for his own britches! He's not even trying to be polite! And he's pretty stupid not to listen when one of the Valar send warning. And Orodreth just sits there and says nothing!
agh! I'm so frustrated with both of them right now.


5. "...he [Glaurung] defiled the Eithel Ivrin..."
Aw... that was my favorite lake after the words Gwindor spoke there about laughter and such. What does Tolkien exactly mean by defiled? Is the lake gone? Is it all dirty and muddy? Or is it just defiled by the very presence of a dragon? Perhaps the surrounding shores are maimed and dirtied by orc encampments and fires.


6. "Then suddenly he [Glaurung] spoke by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Hurin. Well met!' "
If he spoke by an evil spirit in him, does that mean that Glaurung was demon possessed somehow? Or is that just a poetic embellishment?
Smaug could speak without an evil spirit, so I'm assuming that all Tolkien's dragons were capable of speech on their own. Hmmmm..... don't know.

7. Gwindor's last words to Turin: "Haste you to Nargothrond, and save Finduilas. And this last I say to you: she alone stands between you and your doom. If you fail her, it shall not fail to find you."

Glaurung's words to Turin: "And if you tarry for Finduilas, then never shall you see Morwen or Nienor again; and they will curse you."

Now who are you gonna believe? A lying servant of Morgoth, or your best friend who still loves you despite all you've done to hurt him? Stupid choice, Turin. Stupid. Stupid. So frustrating!
This is why it is taking me so long to read this.

PostPosted: July 17th, 2007, 4:10 pm
by contra mundum

PostPosted: July 17th, 2007, 5:48 pm
by A#minor

PostPosted: July 17th, 2007, 8:01 pm
by contra mundum

PostPosted: July 18th, 2007, 5:41 pm
by nomad
OK, I'm behind the discussion a little. But one question... why, if Morwen thought it too dangerous for Turin to stay, did she not also think it just as dangerous for her daughter to stay? It might be even more dangerous for a young girl.

Tolkien is certainly filling this story with tragedy. Beleg's death by Turin's hand was a coup de force for the tragic. How would you recover from something like that?

And I agree Turin is getting too big for his britches... he's not the first general to do that. Again... the Anakin Sywalker thing... turned in on his own pain and suffering. No one can possibly understand what he's been through. But then, that's largely because he won't tell anyone even who he is to hide his past. He's trying to carry it all on his own shoulders instead of trusting his friends.

PostPosted: July 18th, 2007, 5:52 pm
by A#minor

PostPosted: July 19th, 2007, 4:38 am
by The Pfifltrigg

PostPosted: July 19th, 2007, 5:26 pm
by nomad

PostPosted: July 25th, 2007, 5:15 pm
by nomad

PostPosted: July 25th, 2007, 5:22 pm
by nomad
Whatever the mix of curse-will is driving Turin, Nienor seems to be outright a victim of the curse. The poor girl did nothing more than stick by her misguided mother, and ends up under the spell of Glaurung and allowed a measure of happiness only to set her up for a terrible fall. Tolkien hasn't exactly rectified the rarity of strong female characters in his work. Not that I think that is automatically a bad thing that needs rectifying. But the book is called the Children, pl, of Hurin. But it's really all about Turin.

PostPosted: July 25th, 2007, 9:12 pm
by A#minor

PostPosted: July 27th, 2007, 5:01 pm
by nomad

PostPosted: July 27th, 2007, 6:24 pm
by A#minor