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GM's Lilith

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GM's Lilith

Postby The Exodus » 08 Sep 2009, 22:36

If you have not read it, stop doing what you're doing and go buy it. Or, if you have it, read it. Now. It is absolutely FANTastic (get it... like FANTasy? :blush: )

To anyone who has read it and wants to discuss it, I'm all for it. Or, for anyone who hasn't read it and has questions, ask away! I've heard some people have trouble reading it and/or understanding it's deeper themes. But I've saved this book till after having read all of his sermons (many of them more than once), so I think I have a fairly good grasp on what he's getting at.

In my humble opinion, it is the single greatest spiritual fantasy I have ever read.

*edit* By the way, the book can be read online here. Not sure if it's the entire text but it may be.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bxjNfh ... q=&f=false
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby David Jack » 14 Sep 2009, 14:45

Exodus, I'd be more than happy to discuss Lilith with you, but I'm afraid I'd need to give it a second read. I understood phantastes fairly well from a first reading (by my own judgement anyway) but Lilith did lose me in places. I could tell from what i did understand that it was a work of genius, but feel that i would appreciate it so much more once i've read it again. i'm pretty familiar with the sermons myself though, so if you want to share how you think macdonald's ideas translate from sermons to novel, i'd be interested to read what you have to say.
"This is and has been the Father’s work from the beginning-to bring us into the home of His heart.” George MacDonald.
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby ainulindale » 27 Sep 2009, 02:20

I was quite taken with it, but will need to reread it to discuss... But thanks for bringing it up!
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Lioba » 29 Sep 2009, 19:44

I just started reading it online- thank you for the link! I could buy it but only in German and I just don´t want to loose any subtleness of George McDonalds beautiful language.

Here is another link for online-readers
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/George_MacDonald/Lilith/
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Lioba » 01 Oct 2009, 16:03

I´ve now reached the Chapter " My Father´s manuscript and cam to this sentence by Mr. Raven.
The blunder all my children make!" he murmured. "The only door out is the door in!"


The whole story seems full of symbols and deep thoughts, like the quintessence of Mcdonalds Wisdom. But here I got a bit confused. Mr. Raven doesn´t seem to be a direct ancestor of the protagonist. Have i somewhere missed the point or will the question be answered later on?
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Mr Bultitude » 03 Oct 2009, 17:01

Well I just finished the book last night, after about a week of sometimes slow reading. I have mixed feelings toward it...I feel like he has some profound things to say in it, and for the most part they are understood, but his way of getting them said is sometimes unwieldy and not as beautiful as it would be in the words of a better novelist.

I wasn't sure there was going to be a coherent storyline and theme as I was plodding through the first half of the book; it seemed a lot like the ambling dreamscape of his Phantastes. But after a while you realize that there is some dramatic tension, from the introduction of the Little Ones and Lilith herself. Even still, his ability to spin action into plot is lacking, and seems somehow off, and perhaps this is intentional, as it's obvious that the action is entirely secondary to Mr. Vane's impression of the action and the world about him.

It's readability notwithstanding, there are some very heavy theological ideas here, and I would love for there to be a discussion of them on the forums here. For instance, MacDonald's ideas of heaven, hell, and redemption, at least as portrayed in this book, appear unorthodox, but still have a truth about them. I personally am always captured by the idea that in God's universe anything is possible, so long as it isn't contrary to his nature, and I get that feeling from Lilith--that its rendition of the afterlife and our redemption reverberates with my perception of the coming Truth.

Would love to hear other's thoughts on this work.
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Mr Bultitude » 03 Oct 2009, 17:05

Lioba wrote:. Mr. Raven doesn´t seem to be a direct ancestor of the protagonist. Have i somewhere missed the point or will the question be answered later on?


It will be made clear later.
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Lioba » 03 Oct 2009, 18:45

Thanks and hello! I understand a bit your criticisme but then I find his language not so bad, sometimes even beautiful. Maybe it is not a book to be turned into a script for the movies but I would love to hear it read by a good speaker.
I found this link, but have not yet heard it.It´s better for me to understand first by reading.so I won´t get in trouble when I do not everything at once.
http://www.archive.org/details/lilith_pw_librivox
What I really love is that it is much wisdom and thought expressed and intense feelings, that makes up for what you criticise. I would love to talk about it think i´m ready to do so next week. :read:
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Lioba » 09 Oct 2009, 08:52

is there still interest in a discussion? I got until now a rather good overall impression of the book and would like to go deeper in. This weekend I will have guests-my daughter has invited some friends of her class for the beginning of the autumn school holidays- that meanss a lot of cooking and baking, so maybe I won´t have to muche time, but that´s no problem- just start without me and I will enter when I can.
By the way: Yesterday I read "Little Daylight "- seems to me their is a parallel to Lilith.
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Mr Bultitude » 10 Oct 2009, 16:33

Indeed I would love to continue the discussion of this faery book! To that end I will start by saying something very general about my impression of this work and of the Inklings and similar writers...it brings me pleasure to reside in a universe in which non-canonical things can expand my understanding of the cosmos at large. I mean to say, we have to aid us our reason, which gets us very far, and Scripture, which brings us farther still, and a whole other, enormous category of unorthodox interpretations of the Christian worldview, each which paint their own picture of some facet of the true universe, to deepen our understanding (hopefully) of Truth.

That's not to say that "the world according to Lilith" is the actual state of things, but that it contains no dearth of moments that elucidate the possible state of things in our mysterious world. After all, as they say, God works in mysterious ways. And considering all that I have experienced, and all that others have experienced, in this universe that is sometimes simplified by a popular rendition of the Christian worldview, it is certianly possible that our afterlife is more like the dreamy, sometmes grave, sometimes ebullient, world of Lilith than it is like living in the clouds looking down on the earth (which is how I used to imagine heaven). I look at works like this kind of like apocrypha.
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Lioba » 10 Oct 2009, 18:09

The comparision of those books to the apocrypha is an interesting idea and I tend to agree in this.Usefull and fine to read but not suited to extract dogmatic truth out of it. I got the impression that MacDonald tends towards Apocatastis and Adams graveyard is the place where the dead rest until their final resurrection- not a purgatory of torture but a place of development and rest.
If this is correct theology might be questionable, but I think we still gain some good for us by watching the different persons developments.
It is striking how timeless the characters of Lilith and Lona are. Which character was the most interesting or important for you?
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby nomad » 12 Oct 2009, 01:09

I just ordered Lilith from Amazon (through the Wardrobe of course). Very excited. :dance:
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby Lioba » 12 Oct 2009, 11:51

Hi, nomad ! It´s fine you enter the discussion too!
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby nomad » 16 Oct 2009, 02:17

It's just come in the mail. Just give me a couple days and I'm sure I'll have something to say. :lipssealed:
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"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best -- " and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
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Re: GM's Lilith

Postby nomad » 02 Nov 2009, 03:00

I finally got started on Lilith. I've read the first 7 chapters so far. What incredible imagery! It's got some of the creepiness of The Cruel Painter, which I love. Of course, I don't know yet what it's all about. I have already noticed a little bit of a MacDonald trait that fascinated me in his short stories, which is his use of shadow or darkness as something comforting or relaxing or playful, rather than always sinister. It's also hard not to draw parallels between the passage between worlds here and the way the children get into Narnia. As well as Mr. Raven's wife and the white witch - although they would be complete opposites in character.
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"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best -- " and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
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