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Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 19th, 2009, 5:12 pm
by rusmeister
It is with some misgivings that I post here at all. I feel that people who hold conscious dogmatic beliefs are not terribly welcome here, and that respect for other's beliefs increasingly means not suggesting that they may be wrong; ie, it seems that here doubt is only respected in regards to one's own beliefs.

However, in the hopes that not all serious and dogmatic Catholic and Orthodox posters have fled the boards here, I would like to pose a question specifically to them; most specifically to Catholic posters - whose faith G.K. Chesterton ardently and specifically defended, and that is this: What knowledge did GKC have of the eastern (Orthodox) Church? I have become an Orthodox Chestertonian, and have read perhaps half of GKC's published works (more actual books, not as many journalistic essays as I'd like - the man wrote well over 4,000 essays and close to a hundred books), and despite his enormous knowledge spanning Protestantism, Buddhism, Islam, and atheist/skeptic thought, he shows essentially no knowledge of the Orthodox Church. I have found perhaps three or four vague references (two, I think, in his book on St Thomas Aquinas) to the eastern Church, period.

The result is that Orthodox Christians can essentially claim Chesterton as their own - in nearly everything he says, they may confidently replace the word "Catholic" with the word "Orthodox", and the effect and meaning is the same. (Never mind his broader use of the word "orthodox".) Of course his emphasis is on medieval history, and his intent is Catholic, but it seems pretty clear that his information on Orthodox Christianity is acquired straight from (obviously biased) Catholic sources, and the policy of the Catholic Church regarding the general public seems to have been to maintain silence on the existence of the Orthodox Church.

This is not at all to debate Orthodoxy vs Catholicism per se; I'm only interested in GKC's relation to it. Not to argue, but to learn (maybe someone here really does know something I don't know). It certainly is an anomaly - a serious gap in his enormous knowledge and thought, which I have the greatest respect for (heck, I'm dedicated to reading all of his works and to getting as many as possible translated into Russian, lest anyone think I want to knock a truly great man).

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 20th, 2009, 10:17 pm
by Mr Bultitude
As only an amateur Chestertonian, I can't offer an answer to the question you're asking in your post. But for our benefit and to at least add some replies here: can you describe, or link to resources that describe, the differences and commonalities between the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches?

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 23rd, 2009, 4:10 am
by rusmeister
Hi, Mr B!
We are all amateurs, in the sense that we love these things. :)

Here is a link that evidently tries to present differences from a neutral point of view:
http://christianityinview.com/comparison.html

Obviously, Orthodox and Catholic sources see and present the issues and history in different lights. www.oca.org is a reliable and canonical Orthodox site, one of the most authoritative out there.

But I really don't want to debate Orthodoxy vs Catholicism; what I would welcome are ideas as to why Chesterton's works can or cannot be, with the qualifications of the Papacy and specifically Catholic history being taken into account, equally used by Orthodox Christians as apologetics for Orthodoxy. (Well, the 'can' is pretty obvious if you know anything about the Orthodox Church - I'll only say here that if your knowledge of any Church does not come from that Church about its own teachings, you ought to suspect your 'knowledge'.)

Like I said, I think the Catholic people and those most knowledgeable about Chesterton and best able to respond that I knew here have been driven off. But if there is anyone here who can respond, I'd welcome it!

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 23rd, 2009, 4:22 pm
by Mr Bultitude
Thank you for posting those links. The history and present state of denominational Christianity are things I find most interesting, especially because I have yet to officially align myself with one or the other.

In lieu of commenting on the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, as that is not the purpose of your thread, I could say one thing about your question of whether an Orthodox is as justified as a Catholic in using Chesterton as a defense of his faith. I'd say that as much as Chesterton doesn't claim that his views are exclusively in support of Catholic Christianity is how much a non-Catholic could refer to them as illumination of his own Christianity. Although Chesterton sometimes invokes Catholicism specifically, he also often speaks of the fundamental Christian idea, which needless to say is accessible to Catholics and non-Catholics alike. In fact, in my amateur interpretation of it, his Orthodoxy is a fine defense of both the Catholic and Orthodox traditions. I think most of his stuff is in harmony with the idea that Lewis ran on in his Mere Christianity, that it is more productive and accessible to deal with the Christianity that is beneath the denominational fractures, than it is to deal with the Christianity that positions itself relative to the fractures.

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 23rd, 2009, 7:48 pm
by Sven

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 23rd, 2009, 9:40 pm
by Adam Linton

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 23rd, 2009, 10:11 pm
by john

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 24th, 2009, 5:54 am
by rusmeister

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 24th, 2009, 2:27 pm
by Mr Bultitude

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 25th, 2009, 1:49 pm
by rusmeister

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 27th, 2009, 5:49 pm
by Mr Bultitude

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 30th, 2009, 5:14 am
by rusmeister

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 30th, 2009, 12:04 pm
by Lioba
What could be helpfull.
We should keep in mind what we have as a common heritage every Christian can refer to.
These are for example besides Holy Scripture the seven oecumenical counsels.
To be reread here.http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG0835.HTM
What is often forgotten: the conservative Protestantisme including Anglicanisme widely agrees with them. Scripture holding supreme authority does not mean that all dogmatic belief is refused.Disagreements might be found especially regarding the seventh council mostly from the calvinistic side, but Highchurch- Anglicanisme reapproached lutheran and catholic views.
So it is not at all surprising that many aspects in Chesterton and Lewis writings are in harmony with Catholicisme and Orthodoxy.
Regarding Lewis words in Mere christianity he simply states the protestant view of ecclesia invisibils.
If we want to sort out what is specifically catholoc/orthodox/protestant in the writings of Chesterton and Lewis we have to to look for statements that can refer only to one of the different Churches confessions.
Lewis clearly speaks of a protestant view of Chirch when he says that god will sort it out, although he might be in harmony with Catholicisme and Orthodxy in many other aspects.
Now what about Chesterton? He clearly is not tending to protestantisme, also many of his sayings are in harmony with old lutheran teaching. His negative notions tend more to specific forms of calvinistic teaching.
What in his work can only and really only be accepted by Catholic or Orthodox creed?
Differences clearly- the filioque in the Creed as necessary ( originally totally un-catholic and a German Sin :wink: ) or totally to be refused, the differences in the definition of original sin and justification,papal infallibilty and so on.
If he clearly takes sides in such question beyond debate he can be located without a doubt.
Now he was doubtless Catholic and Orthodoxy was simply far away and maybe not so much in his focus.

Please note - I did not post these things to start a discussio what we might believe to be true- that is absolutly of no consequence regarding the topic.

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 31st, 2009, 4:29 am
by rusmeister

Re: Chesterton and the Eastern Church

PostPosted: October 31st, 2009, 3:04 pm
by Lioba
Hi, Rusmeister- I tried to find a strictly logical dogmatic approach for as you said many things can interpreted differently.
Chesterton was clearly catholic in my eyes, what seperated him most from Protestantisme is his critical view of spiritual and doctrinal individualisme. Regarding Orthodoxy he could not say much about it, because creed is not only dogma- here you are right, it is also expressed through tradition, practise and it´s specific spirituality.