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C.S.Lewis and Duels

The man. The myth.

C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 17th, 2004, 8:55 pm

Do you know if C.S.Lewis ever expressed his opinion on duels?

There are 3 duels in his books I can quickly recall, (1) Prince Caspian against his uncle, (2) the one in Till We Have Faces and (3) Ransom faces possessed Weston in Perelandra.

Duels (the surrendering of arguments to force) doesnt seem like the kind of practice he would support, but I cant remember reading an opinion on them from him.
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 17th, 2004, 9:27 pm

Zahir,

I don't know if Lewis ever expressed an opinion on duelling. Since it has been illegal in Britain since the Victorian age at least, though, I can't imagine he supported its practise. I would say that the use of duelling in his books owes itself to (a) the influence upon Lewis of the chivalric code of which duelling was a part in the Middle Ages. I say this with partic. reference to the Narnia books. (b) the fact that a duel simply makes for great drama - something seen, for example, in the Star Wars films as well as CSL's books.

Malcolm
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Stanley Anderson » July 18th, 2004, 12:57 am

He says something about the "aspect" of it in Perelandra as regards different periods and settings, though in a fairly abstract way.

--Stanley
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 19th, 2004, 9:19 pm

I'm amazed, though, on how often duelling is found in so many cultures. It may now be illegal, but was not for quite a long time.

Duelling resounds strongly in the popular culture of many latinamerican countries, and is present in the lifes of many emblematic literary characters (like Martín Fierro). But regardless the literary merits of such works, while looking to make up a distinctily national voice, they romantizise the cultural sin through which prevailance of the strongest replaces honor and sound arguments. In this respect, there's is no difference between the Venezuelan llanero, the Argentinean gaucho and the US cowboy.

The duel in Perelandra is indeed distinct from the ones in Till We Have Faces and Prince Caspian (which are ploys to defeat a stronger enemy). Ransom can't seem to defeat Weston neither physically nor through argument (he was losing in this respect, was he? I can't recall) so the use of force seems the only solution. This is coherent to Lewis views on war as a unavoidable evil imposed on every generation by history. Whenever humanity struggles to right its wrongs, blood is shed.

See? Now I have to reread Perelandra with this in mind! Cool!
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 20th, 2004, 12:10 pm

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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 20th, 2004, 12:16 pm

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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 20th, 2004, 12:20 pm

In a way duelling is quite honourable: two men, two weapons and the best man wins. Well, kind of. I suppose the stronger is more likely to win - if they are using swords, anyway.

Anyway, happy reading if you get to Perelandra again!

mjm
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 20th, 2004, 1:05 pm

Prevailing at swordplay is not necessarily a matter of strength; there is a great deal of skill involved.

I suppose the Biblical episode of David and Goliath is, in essence, a duel.

I just now remember a quote, I think from Twain, which goes something like, "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

(Seems I was mistaken ... this was not Twain, but Damon Runyon ... someone whose name would be entirely unknown to me, save for my experience playing in the musical Guys 'N' Dolls.)

Where the duel is settled by pistols or swords, the determining factor is not necessarily strength, but skill (and perhaps, luck).

Pace e bene,
~Karl
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby loeee » July 20th, 2004, 10:37 pm

Hello

Actually, Ransom defeats Weston physically, and Lewis is at pains to say that, physically, it is just one middle aged scholar against another.

Also, do keep in mind that during the "age of chivalry" people actually believed that the one with right on his side was ordained by God to prevail in a duel, whether he was the stronger/more skilled or not. We may believe that they were wrong in this, but that was their belief.
"You can't go walking through Mordor in naught but your skin."
Put on the full armor of God.
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 21st, 2004, 2:17 am

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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 21st, 2004, 3:20 pm

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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 21st, 2004, 3:48 pm

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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Stanley Anderson » July 21st, 2004, 4:36 pm

I would just add, that whether one agrees with Lewis' reason or art in expressing his reasoning in the book, it is not just a "solution" tossed in to get rid of the problem of the Unman. In chapter 11, Ransom "thinks through" almost exactly the sorts of things that bother you about the dual. Ransom also thinks it is inconsistent and a "non-starter" and rebels against the idea with all reasonableness. But all this banter with himself and Maleldil is not just dressing for the battle to come -- it is indeed one of the central issues of the book. It may not be an issue that one feels a need for literary resolution, and so, as you write, it may be something that you cannot say why it bothers you. But I think that Lewis is addressing it as an issue he approached on purpose, and didn't simply paint himself into a corner by accident, plotwise. And curiously enough, his "resolution" of the issue, against all reason (that Ransom argues so reasonably about throughout the chapter), is not unlike the "reason" God gives to Job -- a sort of "unreasonable" statement to Ransom of "don't ask -- it's beyond your ability to reason".

But of course Lewis does this all in a "reasonable" way, so I don't know if that addresses your charge that he "overdoes it" at times:-)

--Stanley
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 21st, 2004, 7:13 pm

I'd call it an impression rather than a charge, but that's a quibble :-)

I still feel that he "overdefined" joy, for instance. But I appreciate the lack of a term for the wonderfully evocative feeling that he describes.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Re: C.S.Lewis and Duels

Postby Guest » July 30th, 2004, 5:31 pm

From a sporting point of view duelling is honorable. In sports two parties match their skills in equal conditions to find out who is better. Of course, in may be one of the parties' intention to cheat or humiliate his opposite, but that would be a deviation from the original fair scheme.

Also, duelling may be a derivation (or rather a parallel development) of those trials of faith made by early medieval prophets to put the divine inspiration of their claims to test by putting themselves through a nearly impossible feat (like crossing a long wooden hall set on fire). If they were indeed the voice of God, then God would ordain them to survive, wouldn't He? Unlike Elijah facing Baal's prophets in 1st Kings 18, such test served more the prophet's arrogance than God's glory; but at least acknowledged obligatory faith in the Providence of God and His justice.

So duelling combines both sportsmanship, faith and justice in a single act, as David and Goliath's duel illustrates. That may make it seen a fair practice, as there are things worth fighting and dying for, and while the use of force may not be ideal, there are people who will just get their way regardless the fair arguments one may have against it. But while the ancient practice seems necessary and fair in their historical terms(particularly in ages when lawlessness forced a person to stand his ground and frequently defend his causes by force), duels have since become devoid of any good traits. There is nothing but murderous rage, pride, arrogance and machism in a duel of cowboys or gauchos. And I find it disquietening that such traits are hailed as part of the cultural heritage of a nation.
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