This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

One trivia point plus a good resource

The man. The myth.

One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby larry gilman » August 1st, 2004, 8:54 pm

The other night I noticed an amusing error, or what I think is an error, in Pauline Baynes’ illustration of Drinian, Lucy, Reepicheep, et al. in Caspian’s cabin, in _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_, p. 29 of the hardcover edition: A globe is standing on a small table. But the world of which Narnia is a part is not spherical---is it? It physically borders Aslan’s country, which is endless. Not a globe, like our world. Of course, this isn’t verified till the end of _Dawn Treader_, but the one thing that Caspian and companions seem quite sure of NOT doing on their voyage is circumnavigating a sphere. Hmm.

Second, I recommend the following website:

http://www.solcon.nl/arendsmilde/cslewi ... /index.htm

Arend Smilde is a translator of CSL into Dutch. Her notes on several of Lewis’s books are fascinating, as she’s worked hard to track down the sources of many quotations and the meanings of many obscure phrases. For example, I was delighted to learn, after all these years, that in the line of poetry by David Lyndsay from which Lewis drew the title _That Hideous Strength_ (referring to the Tower of Babel), "Lyndsay was certainly using the word Strength here in its now archaic sense of ‘stronghold’ or ‘fortress’."

She also performs the invaluable service of giving the full text of J. B. S. Haldane’s hostile review of the Space Trilogy. Many of us have read Lewis’s unfinished but fascinating rebuttal to Haldane’s review, "A Reply to Professor Haldane," but far and few, far and few are those who have actually read Haldane’s original attack. Smilde also gives a review of Lewis by George Orwell that few us will have seen before and a useful review of A. N. Wilson’s biography of Lewis.

Larry Gilman
larry gilman
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Sharon, VT

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby Stanley Anderson » August 1st, 2004, 10:23 pm

[from Larry]:
>A globe is standing on a small table. But the world of which Narnia is a
>part is not spherical---is it? It physically borders Aslan’s country, which
>is endless. Not a globe, like our world.

I think your part of your description provides the explanation here. You say "endless". One cannot adequately display an endless flat world on a finite sheet of paper. Well, there are ways, but a sperical projection (or actually, the inverse of a sperical projection) could portray an infinite plane onto the surface of a sphere quite nicely, the way our spherical world is "projected" onto a plane (nomally, in the past by the Mercator projection, but supplanted in recent years by other types of projections).

Of course any such projection create distortions, but they are offset by various other types of functionality in other ways, depending on the type of projection. In this case, Aslan's country could appear as a finite land mass at either the north or south pole (probably the south for convenience) sort of like Antarctica. And this would fit nicely with our own world's picture since Antarctica was generally unreachable (and therefore little was known about it) without great effort, similar to the Dawn Treader's epic journey.

Of course I'm being a bit silly here in trying to figure out how to "make it fit" so that Baynes illustration is ok after all, but I find that I rather like this analogy -- I feel like there is even more to it metaphorically or symbolically, and I want to give it more thought to dig it out:-)

--Stanley
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby Guest » August 1st, 2004, 11:02 pm

Hello Larry,

Thanks for that post - esp. the reference to Arende Smilde's website (& Hello to her if he she reads this!).

MJM
Guest
 

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby Guest » August 2nd, 2004, 1:56 am

Larry, thanks for the resource!! I've bookmarked it for future reading. I love resources!

Now I have to find the illustrations so I may ponder your trivia point to the fullest.
Guest
 

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby larry gilman » August 2nd, 2004, 5:45 pm

Good technical point, Stanley---totally valid---but to continue the admittedly just-for-fun argument: Although on inhabitant of a flat world _could_ map their plane onto a sphere, why _would_ they? We project an (approximate) sphere onto flat paper because flat paper is easier to print on, store, handle, and make measurements from than a model planet (globe). We put up with projectional distortion for the sake of all these gains. But if we lived on a plane, making a globular map would result in a harder-to handle object PLUS distortion! For navigation---esp. navigation of a cramped sailing ship---we would surely want the undistorted, more-compact map---a piece of paper.

Or perhaps Narnian science was still in its primitive, round-Earth stage at the time of this story. Narnian cartographers had not yet dispensed with the old myth of a spherical Earth and replaced it with the scientifically correct Flat-Earth model! Why, they were probably still imaginging that the Earth went around the Sun.

Larry
larry gilman
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Sharon, VT

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby Stanley Anderson » August 2nd, 2004, 6:19 pm

[from Larry]:
>why _would_ they? We project an (approximate) sphere onto flat
>paper because flat paper is easier to print on, store, handle, and
>make measurements from than a model planet (globe). We put
>up with projectional distortion for the sake of all these gains. But
>if we lived on a plane, making a globular map would result in a
>harder-to handle object PLUS distortion! For navigation---esp.
>navigation of a cramped sailing ship---we would surely want the
>undistorted, more-compact map---a piece of paper.

One ingredient in using such a projecton of a flat world onto a sphere may have simply been a fascination with spherical worlds that we see in VDT with Caspian wanting to know what it is like living in a spherical world.

But also remember that a flat map would have no distortions if it were representing a finite area. But as you noted in your first post, it is endless. To represent such a thing on a sheet of paper would still require distortions. One might have an undistorted portion of only the area they were sailing on or to (and of course they didn't know the area they were sailing to), but the purpose of a "world map" is to show "the whole thing". So, in this case, a spherical world would probably not show much more distortion (how does one "measure" the amount of distortion and compare between the two?:-)

But it makes me think of another question. Does the Narnian world extend in all directions? We know that Aslan's country is to the East past the oceans. I suppose it must be on all sides too (not to mention that we know of "Narnian world existence" both below (Bism) and above (the stars). My reasoning for a spherical representation was based on your comment that it was "endless", but I was assuming endless in all directions.

I might also suggest that it may not be any more cumbersome to "store" a globe than rolled up maps:-) And as far as handling goes, have you ever had to deal with rolled up diagrams? One usually needs about four arms to hold the various corners down so that they don't curl up and try to roll back in on you. On a large map this can be a bit tricky. Not to mention the necesity for a large table to put it on. A globe stays in its place and one can access any part of it with a quck turn.

Perhaps Lewis was getting around these problems with the map that they got (was it on the dufflepuds island from the magician?) where it showed where they had been down to any accuracy that you wanted to see or magnify (I have mentioned elsewhere in the OSP study threads about Lewis' "fractal-like" description of Malacandrian art long before the subject of Fractals was developed. This map by the magician has some of that same quality!:-)

[from Larry]:
>Why, they were probably still imaginging that the Earth went
>around the Sun.

Can you imagine the -- well, hmmm...what would be the inverse of cycles and epicycles in trying to configure a cosmology in the opposite direction?:-)

--Stanley
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby larry gilman » August 3rd, 2004, 3:47 pm

Stanley,

Ahhh, I love a good quibble! Another ping of the pong, then:

Right, Narnian cartographers could have put up with some distortion IF it were necessary to map an endless flat world onto a sphere---but in the book, they didn't _know_ that their world was endless, only that it was flat. They didn't know that Aslan's country was really there in the East. It was all Terra Incognita beyond the Lonely Isles. Therefore, they could have had no practical motive to put up with geometric distortion in order to map a flat world of infinite extent to a sphere.

And surely a map need not be rolled up: what of flat-shelves? An extremely efficient use of space, and easier handling too (scrolls are a pain for the reasons you mention). Stacked flat maps---i.e., distortionless maps, in Narnia---would take up negligible space compared to globes. But even with rolling, geometry assures that a rolled-up map occupies far less space per area portrayed than a globe: the area portrayed on a globe is proportional to its radius (R) squared, where R is on the order of, say, 6 inches, whereas the area portrayed on a rolled map is proportional to R times N times H, where R is on the order of an inch, N is the number of turns in the roll (perhaps 5 to 10), and H is the height of the map (maybe 20 inches). One can do the math . . . The result: A typical rolled map, even assuming Narians _had_ to roll their maps for some reason, portrays far more area per cubic inch occupied than would a globe. Globes would, therefore, never be used as practical navigation tools where space was at a premium, as on the tiny Dawn Treader----although a Narnian natural philosopher fascinated by the possibility of spherical worlds might construct such a model in her or his studio as a speculative or instructive curiosity, like an orrery. But why schlep such a toy literally to the ends of the earth?

Illustrator goof!

With much pleasure,

Larry Gilman
larry gilman
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Sharon, VT

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby Guest » August 3rd, 2004, 4:36 pm

Guest
 

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby Stanley Anderson » August 4th, 2004, 3:34 pm

[from Larry]:
>It was all Terra Incognita beyond the Lonely Isles. Therefore,
>they could have had no practical motive to put up with geometric
>distortion in order to map a flat world of infinite extent to a
>sphere.

Thus all the more motive for the aesthetic appeal of the globe. Aside from the areas between the Narnian coast and the Lonely Isles, there wouldn't be much "practical" stuff to put on the "area efficient" flat charts. I'm sure they would have had whatever flat charts they needed for navigating the known areas west of the Lonely Isles, but the globe, again, would allow a "fanciful" display of all the known, conjectured, and unknown lands into one compact ball. Who needs to worry about projection distortions when most of the area is unknown anyway?

>And surely a map need not be rolled up: what of flat-shelves? An
>extremely efficient use of space, and easier handling too (scrolls
>are a pain for the reasons you mention).

Makes sense to me. But why then do was always see rolled up charts being unrolled onto crowded tables? could it be the efficiency in space is offset by the difficulty in organization (try to find a chart quickly in a stack of large sheets) or transportation (wouldn't it be awkward to carry a large flat sheet from this storage bin on this end of the room over here over to that table at the other end of the room over there (the entanglements of manipulating a large sheet of wallpaper onto a far wall that inexperienced hangers can get into is a witness to this:-)

>Globes would, therefore, never be used as practical navigation
>tools where space was at a premium, as on the tiny Dawn
>Treader

But again, there would be no practical navigation "tool" (in the form of charts anyway) past the Lonely Isles (I can't remember -- is it the Lone Islands or the Lonely Isles?), since it was all unknown. And though the journey had a so-called "practical" side of finding out the fate of the seven Narnian Lords, its main goal was simply to explore the end of the world. Caspian's speech (in imitation of Henry V's St. Crispin's Day speech in Shakespeare) declares as much when he chastises his men for being so practical in the face of such a glorious adventure. I can well imagine him schlepping such a toy to the end of the world!

(Boy, I hope you don't have many clever answers to these points -- I'm quickly running out of rationalizations as can be seen by the quality of my response here -- let me see, I don't suppose it is possible one of the children was holding a globe when they were swept into the picture in the first place and Caspian was simply storing it for them?:-)

--Stanley
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby loeee » August 4th, 2004, 4:37 pm

Perhaps it is not a globe of Narnia, but a globe of the cosmos (I forget what those are called). In that case, a globe would be eminently practical, since the heavens appear to be encircling the world, even when it is a flat world.

Did Narnians really believe that their world was endless? I thought they described it as a flat disk, with the oceans endlessly pouring over the edge. I need to look it up, and check out that picture as well. Unfortunately, my CON are in a box somewhere under the stairs, along with most of my books.
"You can't go walking through Mordor in naught but your skin."
Put on the full armor of God.
User avatar
loeee
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: California

Re: One trivia point plus a good resource

Postby Stanley Anderson » August 4th, 2004, 5:05 pm

[from loeee]:
>I thought they described it as a flat disk, with the oceans
>endlessly pouring over the edge.

That's what they conjectured and argued about near the end of the book. But Larry's comment included Aslan's country (which I suppose nullifies this whole thing because Aslan's country is probably not flat in any sense of the word. In fact, I think it is rather confusing at the end of VDT exactly what happens at that edge with Reepicheep going over the wave, and then the children going to the land area where they meet the lamb.

--Stanley
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Flat Disc

Postby Guest » August 4th, 2004, 6:17 pm

Guest
 

Re: Flat Disc

Postby loeee » August 4th, 2004, 6:22 pm

"You can't go walking through Mordor in naught but your skin."
Put on the full armor of God.
User avatar
loeee
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: California

Re: Flat Disc

Postby Stanley Anderson » August 4th, 2004, 6:28 pm

[from Karl]:
>So I don't mind so much the 'geographical anomaly' of the end of
VDT.

Nor do I. I agree totally with you. In fact, I had considered (but ended up not bothering) going back and editing my message shortly after I had posted it to clarify that when I said that part was confusing, I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was a fault in the writing, but that it was very much a part of the wonder and vastness of Aslan's country that we couldn't take it all in with our limited senses. In fact, he does quite a bit of this at the ending when the lamb changes shape and such. We as readers must just accept this "transendental" description (probably a lot like how we have to pretty much just "read and accept" John's descriptions in his Revelation without trying to fit it all together physically like a jigsaw puzzle)

--Stanley
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Re: Apocalypsos

Postby Guest » August 4th, 2004, 6:38 pm

I guess I'll just put this Apocalypse Decoder Ring up on E-bay, then ....

Cheers,
~Karl
Guest
 

Next

Return to C. S. Lewis

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 15 guests

cron