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Lewis-Tolkien talk

The man. The myth.

Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby Leslie » September 18th, 2004, 2:48 am

I just got back from Dr. Ralph Wood's lecture. He's a good speaker - if any of you get a chance to hear him, do!

Dr. Wood did not say anything that I wasn’t already somewhat aware of (and I have not [yet!] read every scrap of biography about either man), but he brought out themes that were interesting. He focused on contrasting the two men in four main areas.

Dr. Wood made mention early on about Williams’ influence on Lewis as a source of trouble between Lewis and Tolkien, and Tolkien’s dislike of Joy. He later mentioned Tolkien's dislike of most of Lewis' work.

personality

Tolkien: shy, diffident, mumbled when lecturing, did not make friends easily, insular, held grudges against those who criticized his work negatively, or whom he did not agree with

Lewis: made friends easily and was deeply loyal to them (eg Arthur Greeves, Paddy Moore and Mrs. Moore), spoke well, was an “intellectual pugilist”, answered every letter by return post

craftsmanship and style

Tolkien: wrote multiple drafts of everything, laboured over every detail, thought that Lewis wrote “too many books too quickly”, thought Narnia second-rate as a mythical world, disliked direct allegory with one-to-one symbols or representations

Lewis: rarely wrote a second draft of anything (his first edit of his writing would be at the page-proof stage of publishing), characters (especially as shown by their names) and events are obviously directly allegorical

apologetics and evangelism

Tolkien: T said his writings would “neither teach nor preach”, and that they would stand on their own merits as works of art, thought the Protestant reformation and Vatican II were huge mistakes, probably resented Lewis remaining Protestant, thought Lewis should not be writing apologetics as a layman

Lewis: evangelised in everything, took a sometimes simplistic approach to theology (Wood gave his highest praise for Lewis’ “imaginative apologetics” i.e. the space trilogy and especially Till We Have Faces )

church and the modern world

Tolkien: warfare is a fundamental fact of the modern world, had a horror of war and coercive force, sought to offer an alternative to war, e.g. Frodo’s pacifism after fulfilling his quest, life and faith are community-oriented

Lewis: war had little or no impact on his imagination, e.g. attitude to war in The Screwtape Letters that war is more useful to God than to the devil, individualistic approach to faith

The two men had their strong bond in their faith, their love of the natural world, their dislike of the modern world of machinery, and their belief in the value of the myths of pagan, pre-Christian cultures.
"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby Guest » September 18th, 2004, 7:34 am

Thank you for that post Leslie; that was very kind of you to give a precis.

Dr. Wood's talk does sound like it was very interesting. Reading what you have written a couple of things jump out at me:

* I think it is a bit strong to say that characters and events in Lewis's books are simply allegories. I would rather say that they had allegorical applicability (Was it Lewis or Tolkien who came up with that phrase?). Did Dr. Woods give any examples of characters or events which he thought were allegories? The one character who immediately comes to mind is Emeth ('Truth').

* I have no doubt that Tolkien thought the Reformation a great mistake - but Vatican II? Did you catch anything more of what Dr. Woods said about this? I know that Evelyn Waugh was badly affected by Vatican II, but not so much Tolkien. I will look up his Letters, but if you did have any further references, that would be really useful.

Anyhow, thanks again for an informative post!

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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby Leslie » September 19th, 2004, 12:18 am

"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby AslansGirl » September 19th, 2004, 3:33 am

If you are what you should be, you will set the workd ablaze!
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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby a_hnau » September 19th, 2004, 10:06 am

I think it's worth saying that Lewis denied absolutely that his fictional works should be read as allegory (where allegory is defined as each character and event having an exact one-for-one correspondence with the persons and events allegorised). Lewis characterised his writing as supposal i.e. "suppose Jesus was to become incarnate in a world of talking animals, what would that look like?" (Narnia) and "suppose the medieval worldview (planets with personal angelic rulers, etc.) to be literally true, what would Christian life and a spiritual conflict in the twentieth century look like in a universe like that?" (The Cosmic Trilogy).
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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby Leslie » September 19th, 2004, 6:23 pm

Just to clarify, preferring the Latin Mass was probably not the only reason that Tolkien disliked Vatican II, but it was a passing remark made by Dr. Wood. Tolkien's attitude to Vatican II was itself mentioned very briefly, merely as an aside to his opinion of the Protestant Reformation.
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"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby Sven » September 19th, 2004, 8:12 pm

Rat! he found breath to whisper, shaking. Are you afraid?
Afraid? murmured the Rat, his eyes shining with unutterable love.
Afraid! Of Him? O, never, never! And yet -- and yet -- O, Mole, I am afraid!
Then the two animals, crouching to the earth, bowed their heads and did worship.
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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby Guest » November 2nd, 2004, 3:13 pm

As far as Lewis using strict allegory, he does do so in A Pilgrim's Regress but this was his first Christian work and his attitudes toward this form later changed.
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Re: Lewis-Tolkien talk

Postby Solomons Song » November 9th, 2004, 3:37 pm

I have always found that their differences were no doubt what brought them together. I heard in a documentary that if you walked by the door where Tolkien and Lewis were speaking, you would have thought they were arguing.

I have a friend that's the same way. We are about-face different in many of our philosophical views, and yet we remain friends.

About Lewis' and Tolkien's writing being allegorical. 50 different readers will tell you 50 different things. Both The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings have strong christian allegorical undertones. CoN's is more apparent. In a letter of C.S. Lewis to a young girl, he commended her in finding the "hidden story" in CoN. Tolkien fervently denied an allegory in LoTR, but I maintain it's there nevertheless.
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