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Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

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Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby zevonfan88 » July 26th, 2006, 1:51 am

Plato writes about a cave where everything in the cave is a mirror image of whats real outside it. In "The Silver Chair" C.S. Lewis uses the Green Witches and Puddlegums argument to exemply Platos theory. I find C.S. Lewis brilliance intruging. It is amazing that anyone was so clever.
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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby A#minor » July 26th, 2006, 4:21 am

That's what I love about Lewis; he puts complexities into simple terms that even a child could read.

Interesting comparison. I wonder if Lewis read that particular bit of Plato. Could you give us an excerpt or description of Plato's mirror-image cave?
"My brain and this world don't fit each other, and there's an end of it!" - G.K. Chesterton
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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby zevonfan88 » July 26th, 2006, 4:49 am

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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby Leslie » July 26th, 2006, 12:08 pm

"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby zevonfan88 » July 26th, 2006, 4:33 pm

He also quotes Plato in "The Last Battle" when Digory tells the kids its all in Plato. He uses the whole shadowlands as Platos Cave. Narnia and Earth weren't the real thing and Heaven was the real Narnia and Earth.
Last edited by zevonfan88 on July 26th, 2006, 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby Sven » July 26th, 2006, 7:24 pm

Rat! he found breath to whisper, shaking. Are you afraid?
Afraid? murmured the Rat, his eyes shining with unutterable love.
Afraid! Of Him? O, never, never! And yet -- and yet -- O, Mole, I am afraid!
Then the two animals, crouching to the earth, bowed their heads and did worship.
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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby zevonfan88 » July 26th, 2006, 7:28 pm

Some information I found.

The Allegory of the Cave
Plato realizes that the general run of humankind can think, and speak, etc., without (so far as they acknowledge) any awareness of his realm of Forms.

The allegory of the cave is supposed to explain this.

In the allegory, Plato likens people untutored in the Theory of Forms to prisoners chained in a cave, unable to turn their heads. All they can see is the wall of the cave. Behind them burns a fire. Between the fire and the prisoners there is a parapet, along which puppeteers can walk. The puppeteers, who are behind the prisoners, hold up puppets that cast shadows on the wall of the cave. The prisoners are unable to see these puppets, the real objects, that pass behind them. What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see. Here is an illustration of Plato’s Cave:



From Great Dialogues of Plato: Complete Texts of the Republic, Apology, Crito Phaido, Ion, and Meno, Vol. 1. (Warmington and Rouse, eds.) New York, Signet Classics: 1999. p. 316.


Such prisoners would mistake appearance for reality. They would think the things they see on the wall (the shadows) were real; they would know nothing of the real causes of the shadows.

So when the prisoners talk, what are they talking about? If an object (a book, let us say) is carried past behind them, and it casts a shadow on the wall, and a prisoner says “I see a book,” what is he talking about?
He thinks he is talking about a book, but he is really talking about a shadow. But he uses the word “book.” What does that refer to?


Plato gives his answer at line (515b2). The text here has puzzled many editors, and it has been frequently emended. The translation in Grube/Reeve gets the point correctly:
“And if they could talk to one another, don’t you think they’d suppose that the names they used applied to the things they see passing before them?”

Plato’s point is that the prisoners would be mistaken. For they would be taking the terms in their language to refer to the shadows that pass before their eyes, rather than (as is correct, in Plato’s view) to the real things that cast the shadows.
If a prisoner says “That’s a book” he thinks that the word “book” refers to the very thing he is looking at. But he would be wrong. He’s only looking at a shadow. The real referent of the word “book” he cannot see. To see it, he would have to turn his head around.


Plato’s point: the general terms of our language are not “names” of the physical objects that we can see. They are actually names of things that we cannot see, things that we can only grasp with the mind.

When the prisoners are released, they can turn their heads and see the real objects. Then they realize their error. What can we do that is analogous to turning our heads and seeing the causes of the shadows? We can come to grasp the Forms with our minds.

Plato’s aim in the Republic is to describe what is necessary for us to achieve this reflective understanding. But even without it, it remains true that our very ability to think and to speak depends on the Forms. For the terms of the language we use get their meaning by “naming” the Forms that the objects we perceive participate in.

The prisoners may learn what a book is by their experience with shadows of books. But they would be mistaken if they thought that the word “book” refers to something that any of them has ever seen.
Likewise, we may acquire concepts by our perceptual experience of physical objects. But we would be mistaken if we thought that the concepts that we grasp were on the same level as the things we perceive.




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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby Jenn » August 14th, 2006, 3:19 am

Mr. Lewis's poem "The Country of the Blind" is about the same problem. (unfortunately I can't find my book of his Poems, or I'd quote it). Basically he says (in the poem) "imagine a country where very gradually, bit by bit, all of the people lose their sight. But they still use the WORDS that carried down from the days when they COULD see. And imagine that a traveller comes to that country and tries to describe for them the things that he CAN see. Do the people say they cannot understand? No! they THINK they can understand because they are still using the words even though they can't really see anymore.

Wish I could find my BOOK!!! :sad:

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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby King Edmund » August 16th, 2006, 1:22 am

Wow. I never put two in two together.
Without my friends or cousins, I don't make sense. Life would be somewhere not worth my time.

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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby Jenn » August 16th, 2006, 11:05 pm

Food is good!
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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby A#minor » August 17th, 2006, 2:49 am

"My brain and this world don't fit each other, and there's an end of it!" - G.K. Chesterton
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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby King Edmund » August 18th, 2006, 8:46 pm

Thanks Jenn!
Without my friends or cousins, I don't make sense. Life would be somewhere not worth my time.

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re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby Sarah N. » August 26th, 2006, 1:49 am

Wonderful, thank you Jenn.
Live in the world as if only God and your soul were in it; then your heart will never be made captive by any earthly thing. ~ St. John of the Cross

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Re: re: Platos Cave and The Silver Chair

Postby k-mann » August 28th, 2006, 9:08 pm

"Dark and difficult times lie ahead. Soon we must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy."
-- Albus Dumbledore
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