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The besiege of Narnia- any ideas?

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The besiege of Narnia- any ideas?

Postby ArdenZ » 09 Jan 2007, 16:32

Is there anyone, besides me, who wonders what the events were that transpired for Narnia to fall under Jadis' reign and become a cold, ever-wintery land? We are told that she will (MN) and that she did (LWW), but we never get a glimpse of what happened or what she did to overthrow the king at the time. I'm not questioning Lewis' work as an excellent storyteller, but I've always been intrigued about what happened. Anyone else have any ideas (even if they are deemed heretical :rolleyes: )? I know this may be a bit of a depressing subject, but it is still an interesing one. Well, to me, anyways.
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Postby Erekose » 09 Jan 2007, 21:15

erm

I think somewheres I touched on a couple of ideas (well basically the samne idea.. just a variance depending on a cross-over concept best not dwelt on... would make the unwritten histories of CoN more akin to THS in style)
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Postby Pete » 10 Jan 2007, 06:48

This topic has indeed been raised elsewhere, Arden. :wink:
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Postby Pine_Tree » 10 Jan 2007, 13:32

Where, exactly?

Because "off-forum" (was planning on a cut-and-paste all at once) I've been putting together my own version, just for kicks. I might still paste it, if there's a "best" spot.

Or is this spot still OK?

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Postby Messenger_of_Eden » 10 Jan 2007, 17:31

Lewis may have had some sort of notes regarding the subject, but in the context of the stories themselves, they never do get into it. I was just thinking about it myself, as I was listening to TMN on FOF audio in my car.

When Aslan set King Frank on the throne, he had Digory plant the Tree that would protect Narnia. That tree, or the loathing of it, would keep Jadis away from Narnia as long as it stood. So for hundreds of years after Narnia's birth, they had peace and enjoyed prosperity under the reign of King Frank and his descendants.

I think I have heard that a storm blew the tree down, or maybe I am thinking of its daughter-tree in our world in Digory's (ex-) garden. Or, maybe a storm did blow it down in Narnia too, since "our" tree seemed to sway at times as if to a different wind,

Or maybe the kings of Narnia grew lax in their protection of it--after all, Aslan had said to protect the tree. We know men grow lazy and forget their calling. it happens in the generations of men on earth--and even in lifetimes.

I think that this is most likely--One of Frank's descendants or perhaps a few generations grew lax and their protection of the Tree waned. When Jadis grew strong and had gathered sufficient evil to her side (remember that her Charn-ish magic would not work in Narnia, so she had to learn to become a powerful sorceress in that world from scratch) she dared to assault the Tree, or perhaps to send an assault against it, and unguarded, it fell.

A desperate and terrible battle ensued, wherein the King and all the royal house were killed, and the Narnian beasts and creatures were subdued. The rest we know.

That's my thought on it--my question is twofold:

1) why did Jadis stop at Narnia? Why not conquer the whole world? After all, by description, Narnia was only a very small country, and this woman obviously had the will, the power, and the greed to subdue it all.

2) Why did the King of Archenland not come to their aid? After all, the kings of Archenland are also the descendants of King Frank, and thus the Narnian kings were their brothers.

One last thought: I find it sad to think that obviously King Frank's line ended (in Narnia) in the trial that ended in the Witch's ascention to power. But had it not been so, there would never have been a need for Peter, Edmund, Susan and Lucy to come to Narnia and a High King set on the throne.

Oh one more question...since the Pevensies obviously never had heirs (the only one who apparently thought of marrying was Susan, and she did not...) then Aslan left Narnia after their reign without a king for countless hundreds of years--how long was it between the Pevensies' departure and the Telmarines' conquest? Why would Aslan not have provided for a king during that time?

Then again, if he had, we would not have had Caspian. We could go on :grin:
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Postby ArdenZ » 10 Jan 2007, 18:21

Messenger_of_Eden wrote:1) why did Jadis stop at Narnia? Why not conquer the whole world? After all, by description, Narnia was only a very small country, and this woman obviously had the will, the power, and the greed to subdue it all.

2) Why did the King of Archenland not come to their aid? After all, the kings of Archenland are also the descendants of King Frank, and thus the Narnian kings were their brothers.


1) You raise a good question there, but I think the answer is simply that Narnia was Alsan's chosen land. An "Israel", if you will. Maybe even his favorite. If she could control Narnia, she could control, in her mind, a piece of Aslan's very own heart. His utmost desire in the Narnian world. That's what makes it a beautiful story in its allegorical sense. Just as God loves humans more than any other creature in our world, Satan help bring a separation between Him and us. But because He loved us that much, He sent His Son to die in our place to bring us back to Himself.

Another thing I've wondered is how the Calormenes faired through this? Were they affected any or did they even know of Narnia's plight?

2) I think Archenland wasn't strong enough and didn't have the man-power to defend Narnia for long. In HHB, it seems as though the country would have been wiped out by only 200 Calormene soldiers if it were not for Narnia's intervention.

Messenger_of_Eden wrote:Oh one more question...since the Pevensies obviously never had heirs (the only one who apparently thought of marrying was Susan, and she did not...) then Aslan left Narnia after their reign without a king for countless hundreds of years--how long was it between the Pevensies' departure and the Telmarines' conquest? Why would Aslan not have provided for a king during that time?


That is a question that I don't have a clear answer for. I wonder if Narnia went into a panic when the kings and queens did not return from the hunt. Maybe the continued fear made it easy for the Telmarines to takeover.

Maybe I should rename this thread "The Plot-Holes Thread". :wink:

By the way Pete, where is that thread? I couldn't find it? People have put little pieces of this question "here and there" in a few posts, but I haven't found a whole thread dedicated to it.
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Postby Erekose » 11 Jan 2007, 01:24

:smile:

Just a thought.

It is possible that a True King/Queen was present throughout the reign of Jadis, in exile in Archenland or wherever.

When Jadis was overthrown, the True King/Queen relinquished rights to the Throne to them during their presence in Narnia, but resumed the position when they left.

There is nothing to say this could be the case in CoN.. BUT there is nothing to say that it WASN'T so. Also the concept wouldn't contradict the spirit of the stories.

/me levels off the plot-hole in fill, and hopes no one drives over it leaving horrible thick tyre marks.. oh wait.. thats POT-holes :rolleyes: :toothy-grin: :grin:

:read: :coffee: :read: :idea:
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Postby Erekose » 11 Jan 2007, 01:49

oh.. what the hay....

potted heresy regarding Jadis coming to Power, the coming of Winter, and the destruction of the tree. Note.. I make/made no attempt to fill in all the details.. just give a general possibility...

Its not intended as a story.. just a heresy.


Consider that something has to happen that affects the tree. So suppose that Jadis is gradually rebuilding her power. On Charn she was "tuned" to whatever gave her magic power (and I use the term magic looseley). On Earth she was out of tune but "receptive", whilst in Narnia she was almost totally "in reverse phase" so to speak.

I postulate the idea that given time she would be able to adjust / adapt.

She would know that her great obstacle would be the tree, and would mount attacks against it.
At some point she expends an extent of Power that destroiys the tree.

When the tree is destroyed the Tree in our world suffers in the Great Storm.

At this time Gregory is being visited by a nephew (adjusted as necessary for the linage heresy) and his friend.
The fall of the tree caused the earth around the roots to be disrupted, revealling.. the rings.

By accidnet the two children use the rinfgs, being transported to the Wood between worlds, in the process taking with them a device that the girl was using in the house which she was holdiong (guess what this would be).

In the wood, they meet Aslan, who directs them to the required pool to reach Narnia.

In Narnia, jadis is still building up her Power. As a last resort she is also adjusting the Deplorable Word for Narnian use.

A set of to be expended events take place. jadis is worried about the precense of the girl and boy.. recalling Polly and Digory, and out of fear of loosing, uses the as yet unperfected Deplorable word, expending most of her Power in the process.

The Near-Deplorable word doesn't bring about the destruction of Narnia, but brings about The Great Winter. The depletion of Power leaves her with basically the power of illusion, and the ability to turn people into stone. Note the similiarity between the states of.. being frozen as stone, frozen as in a Great Winter and frozen as in stasis on Charn.

Initially Jadis is forced to retreat in spite of the destruction she has managed to wreak.

The fact that 2 Children were capable of thwarting Jadis' greater plan causes the phrophesy to be formed regarding the 4 sons and daughters of Adam and Eve to be formed. A corruption of the combination of these 2 with Polly and Digory, with the presence of 4 at the time of Narnia (Digory, Polly, Frank and Andrew)

The two children return to our world where they discover that Digory is aware of their aquiring the rings (which caused him some apprehension but suspected that there was a Greater RFeason for their being revealled to them and so let events run their course)...

The two children remain close friends as they grow older, eventually marrying.

There.. now hows THAT for a Heresy????


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Postby Messenger_of_Eden » 11 Jan 2007, 03:29

A Heresy excellently rendered, dear Heretic!!

However there is one little hole. The two unnamed children get married, while CSL's descriptions of happily ever after almost never involve two companions of an adventure marrying--except in the case of Cor and Aravis, who married so as to go about arguing more conveniently. How could you account for this inconsistency?
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Postby ArdenZ » 11 Jan 2007, 06:49

Wow, Erekose. Nice herecy!

Messenger_of_Eden wrote:However there is one little hole. The two unnamed children get married, while CSL's descriptions of happily ever after almost never involve two companions of an adventure marrying--except in the case of Cor and Aravis, who married so as to go about arguing more conveniently. How could you account for this inconsistency?


True, but since Lewis didn't fabricate this part of the story on paper, it is possible that they could've gotten married. I guess that's what a heresy is all about. :lipssealed:

One little thing that I find unlikely (not trying to be critical :tongue: ) is the idea that the children would not have touched one of the yellow rings without having the green rings on their person when they found them. They wouldn't have known not to touch the rings out of order-- unless Digory has already told them of his experience, which isn't unlikely. There would be no real reason to keep Narnia that secretive.

After some thought, though, I can see the children touching the rings in the correct order because Aslan has a way of making things happen by what might seem pure coincidence. :wink:

Messenger_of_Eden wrote:Oh one more question...since the Pevensies obviously never had heirs (the only one who apparently thought of marrying was Susan, and she did not...) then Aslan left Narnia after their reign without a king for countless hundreds of years--how long was it between the Pevensies' departure and the Telmarines' conquest? Why would Aslan not have provided for a king during that time?


To attack this question again... my older brother and I were discussing the subject of Jadis' rise to power, and this question came up. He suggested the possibility of Narnia becoming a democratic state after the Pevensies left. Now, whether or not he was being humorous or serious, I do not know. :think:
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Postby Erekose » 11 Jan 2007, 11:37

Messenger_of_Eden wrote:However there is one little hole. The two unnamed children get married, while CSL's descriptions of happily ever after almost never involve two companions of an adventure marrying--except in the case of Cor and Aravis, who married so as to go about arguing more conveniently. How could you account for this inconsistency?



As Ardenz points out, there is a precedent for a marriage to occur, so there is no inconsistancy.

Even if there wasn't a precedent, it wouldn't be an inconsistancy per se.

However IF I had suggested that the children remained in narnia and married THAT would have been problematic for various reasons.


To fill in the bits I left out deliberately...

The two unmaned children concerned, who grew up and married each other on EARTH, went on to have 4 children, two boys, two girls, who later vistited their great uncle (exact lineage to be tweaked).

The "device" which the girl was using when the boy brings in the package he found amongst the tree roots is a sewing machine.

:read: :read: :coffee: :read: :idea:

Trawl the CoN pages for something with a title "The Strange and Unusual Heresies/Extrapolations of Erekose".. or basically any post with a question about an "inconsistancy" or "exception" which would attract the attentions of a Heretic
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Postby Messenger_of_Eden » 12 Jan 2007, 03:28

Erekose wrote:
The "device" which the girl was using when the boy brings in the package he found amongst the tree roots is a sewing machine.

:read: :read: :coffee: :read: :idea:


That I did deduce :wink:
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Postby ArdenZ » 12 Jan 2007, 06:39

Pardon my ignorance, but what ramifications does a sewing machine have on the story? Did I miss something? Or I am I forgetting an important detail in the whole CoN story?
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Postby Messenger_of_Eden » 12 Jan 2007, 06:56

The Great Mystery of the Sewing Machine.

In LWW, Mrs. Beaver is in posession of a Sewing Machine--now where would a Beaver come about such a terrestrial thing?! (not to mention why would she have it, as Beavers have no need of Clothes?!)
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Postby ArdenZ » 12 Jan 2007, 08:09

Ah, "I see!" said the blind man. That is a very good question (the latter I am reffering to). Erekose must have discussed this before in another thread.
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