This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

The Last Battle

Please don't close the door behind you.

Postby rusmeister » 30 Mar 2007, 02:58

Dan65802 wrote:
rusmeister wrote:We don't. It has to be what was passed down without fail from the early Church to our days...


I'm sorry, I considered the Nicene Creed (4th century) to be fairly early Church. I did not mean to offend the Orthodox church. I had thought the Nicene Creed was accepted by the Orthodox church.

The point remains that Protestant churches consider the items in the Nicene Creed orthodoxy, and are pretty much unified in agreement on these doctrines in their foundational beliefs.

- Dan -


The Nicene Creed IS Orthodox. It is not the only criterium.

Go to Christian Forums' general theology forum and you'll see just how divided people that claim the Nicene Creed can be on foundational beliefs. (I don't go there because the acid levels get too high - I stick to my congregational forum and respond to friendly fellowship posts.) Even here I try to avoid discussion of theology, because we're just going to disagree, because I believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church established by Christ, that it is quite concrete and not ephemeral, that it has existed in a continuous line, unbroken, of Apostolic succession, that it was never in need of a Reformation and that Protestants didn't have anything to protest against in the Orthodox Church, making all Protestantism completely unnecessary and most here don't. Because of that, I don't believe that we can really use reason to convince each other of matters of faith. The best we can do is learn to not be offensive, but I'd rather not offend in the first place.

I think most religious discussions here are a waste of time for this reason (that we don't agree on what the Church and authority is). The Nicene Creed is important, but by itself it won't save us. The demons also believe, and tremble.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Postby Guest » 30 Mar 2007, 13:58

rusmeister wrote:...I believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church established by Christ...


I don't understand why your belief that the Orthodox church is the only Christian Church nullifies my point that Protestants are pretty universal in their beliefs on the points of the Nicene Creed.

Although all Protestant denominations believe their particular take on theology is accurate, the vast majority of Protestant denominations don't think their church is the only Christian Church. Most, especially Evangelical Protestant churches, believe the true Christian Church is a matter of faith and repentance rather than membership in a certain church.

rusmeister wrote:The Nicene Creed is important, but by itself it won't save us. The demons also believe, and tremble.


I don't think the demons believe everything in the Nicene Creed. I don't think they believe Jesus is their "Lord". I don't think they believe that their salvation comes through Him, or that He was crucified for their sake. The Nicene Creed is not just a list of facts about the Godhead found in the Bible, it's a statement of application of those facts to our individual lives.

- Dan -
Guest
 

Postby rusmeister » 30 Mar 2007, 18:26

Dan65802 wrote:
rusmeister wrote:...I believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church established by Christ...


I don't understand why your belief that the Orthodox church is the only Christian Church nullifies my point that Protestants are pretty universal in their beliefs on the points of the Nicene Creed.

Although all Protestant denominations believe their particular take on theology is accurate, the vast majority of Protestant denominations don't think their church is the only Christian Church. Most, especially Evangelical Protestant churches, believe the true Christian Church is a matter of faith and repentance rather than membership in a certain church.

rusmeister wrote:The Nicene Creed is important, but by itself it won't save us. The demons also believe, and tremble.


I don't think the demons believe everything in the Nicene Creed. I don't think they believe Jesus is their "Lord". I don't think they believe that their salvation comes through Him, or that He was crucified for their sake. The Nicene Creed is not just a list of facts about the Godhead found in the Bible, it's a statement of application of those facts to our individual lives.

- Dan -


Hi Dan!

Please note I didn't say
the Orthodox church is the only Christian Church
. There are lots of Christian churches; there is only one Church established by Christ, and no, I'm not going to debate that.

I was responding to your earlier post prior to its being edited, and my original objection was to a statement that most Protestant churches preach 'orthodox Christianity', when the understanding of what orthodoxy is is extremely fuzzy. I object to the word 'orthodox', the name of my Church, being thrown around without a clear idea what it means, having its meaning cheapened and diluted to valuelessness. Let's start doing the same with the word 'catholic', in its meaning of universal, and see how Catholics react. 'Orthodox' means "true Faith/worship", something most of us disagree quite strongly on the particular substance of.

I do agree with your latter statement; I never disagreed with it.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Postby alecto » 17 Apr 2007, 22:57

Is it possible to find a description of what is meant by Orthodoxy? I'm thinking of something along the line of a catechism, but not necessarily such a long and detailed statement of beliefs. I know there are "Orthodox catechisms" published by churches in the U.S. and Canada, but I don't know if they have authority. Other than the issue of the Pope, what unorthodox beliefs are still dividing the Roman church from the Orthodox. And while we're at it, do the Greek and Russian churches consider each other completely valid? There are a lot of questions like this. I read the other day about how Portugese Roman Catholics shattered the Indian Mar Thoma Orthodox churches founded by St. Thomas. This was a denomination I had never heard of before.
Sentio ergo est.
User avatar
alecto
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Austin, TX

Postby rusmeister » 18 Apr 2007, 02:10

Hi Alecto!

The important thing is that the Orthodox church you are looking at be canonical - in communion with the other Orthodox Churches at large. The 5 ancient church centers were Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople and Alexandria. As you probably know, Rome broke with the others in 1054, and there are smaller groups not in communion with the other churches, such as the Coptic church and the Indian church you mentioned. The only place where there is any confusion about it, really, is in America, and this is because as a (relatively) recent country of immigrants, the churches organized along nationalistic lines. The problem was deepened by the Russian Revolution in 1917 and the formation of the ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) in response to perceived Bolshevil control of the Church in Russia. ROCOR has not been in full communion since its inception, but due to great efforts by both the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR, in May that situation will be ended for good.
The 'nationalistic' churches, such as Greek, Serbian, whatever, are in communion. The national label is just that - a description of what language (besides English) you may find in the church, as well as certain customs and practices, which can differ without affecting communal status (we're fairly easygoing about non-doctrinal issues). So it doesn't matter whether you find yourself in a Greek, Antiochian or whatever church, as long as it's in communion with the other dioceses.

In the US, the big ones are:

The Orthodox Church of America (transpositions of this name are fakes - the 'American Orthodox Church' etc are not legit). Formed from Russian Orthodox churches, it's gone pretty American, but you can still find Russian language sometimes.

http://www.oca.org/

The Greek Orthodoc Archdiocese:

http://www.goarch.org/

The Antiochian Orthodox Church (Arabic roots, but have the most 'English' style of the lot, imo).

http://www.antiochian.org/

For most of your other questions, I would encourage you to browse those sites - they ARE authoritative and your questions are huge. If you can't figure some things out, I can refer you to Christian Forums:

http://www.christianforums.com/f145-the ... hodox.html
You could read anonymously, or register to post. There's a great group of lay folk online.

One more helpful link I just have to add:

http://www.frederica.com/12-things/

It's what many wish they had known before entering an Orthodox church!

Gotta run!

Christ is risen!
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Postby moordarjeeling » 18 Apr 2007, 03:25

Dan65802 wrote: And that his faith didn't quite match up exactly to any particular church doctrine.

-- rushes in foolishly --
But didn't Lewis once tell someone, "My beliefs, like Uncle Toby's, are written in the Book of Common Prayer"?
moordarjeeling
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Apr 2007

Postby moordarjeeling » 18 Apr 2007, 04:00

A#minor wrote:"When souls have been ill-taught about God, the true God will not let them gaze too long upon the Moloch [or Tash] which men have set up to represent Him. He will turn away their minds from that which men call Him, and fill them with some of His own lovely thoughts or works, such as may by degrees prepare the way for a vision of the Father." George MacDonald


This sounds very much like something that Lewis said toward the end of MERE CHRISTIANITY, iirc; it was about God causing a person to concentrate more on the parts of his native religion that most resembled Christianity, so as to get him "as far along as possible" in this life (quoting from memory).
moordarjeeling
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Apr 2007

Postby Stanley Anderson » 18 Apr 2007, 12:48

moordarjeeling wrote:But didn't Lewis once tell someone, "My beliefs, like Uncle Toby's, are written in the Book of Common Prayer"?


Well, more than "someone". He wrote that for all to see in the introduction to Mere Christianity

--Stanley
…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Postby Guest » 18 Apr 2007, 13:11

moordarjeeling wrote:
Dan65802 wrote: And that his faith didn't quite match up exactly to any particular church doctrine.

-- rushes in foolishly --
But didn't Lewis once tell someone, "My beliefs, like Uncle Toby's, are written in the Book of Common Prayer"?


The context of my quoted statement was a discussion of Emeth's entrance into the New Narnia. I'm not sure we can put together Lewis's entire belief system on the afterlife based on this one event in The Last Battle, but Emeth's situation doesn't sound like something he got from The Book of Common Prayer. Although, I have no doubt the foundation for his beliefs was this document iin conjunction with the Bible.

- Dan -
Guest
 

Lewis's 'orthodoxy' in Emeth's encounter with Aslan

Postby Paul F. Ford » 18 Apr 2007, 14:13

I just re-read this entire topic and it is interesting, all the turns the discussion has taken. Has everyone also read http://cslewis.drzeus.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1960&highlight=?

Blessings,
Paul
Paul Ford—self-appointed president of the "245-3617 Club" and proud member of the "245-6317 Club"; author of the Companion to Narnia and the Pocket Companion to Narnia.
Paul F. Ford
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Camarillo, California

Postby moordarjeeling » 19 Apr 2007, 09:17

Dan65802 wrote:
moordarjeeling wrote:
Dan65802 wrote: And that his faith didn't quite match up exactly to any particular church doctrine.

-- rushes in foolishly --
But didn't Lewis once tell someone, "My beliefs, like Uncle Toby's, are written in the Book of Common Prayer"?

The context of my quoted statement was a discussion of Emeth's entrance into the New Narnia. I'm not sure we can put together Lewis's entire belief system on the afterlife based on this one event in The Last Battle, but Emeth's situation doesn't sound like something he got from The Book of Common Prayer. Although, I have no doubt the foundation for his beliefs was this document iin conjunction with the Bible.- Dan -

Oh, did you mean "any particular doctrine"? Sorry, I understood that as "the overall body of doctrine of any particular church."
moordarjeeling
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Apr 2007

Postby Guest » 19 Apr 2007, 12:54

moordarjeeling wrote:Oh, did you mean "any particular doctrine"? Sorry, I understood that as "the overall body of doctrine of any particular church."


Yes, I was referring to the particular doctrine that was being discussed. Although Lewis said his beliefs were written in the Book of Common Prayer, he obviously didn't mean all his beliefs. I don't think the Book of Common Prayer was meant to be an exhaustive list of beliefs anyway.

- Dan -
Guest
 

Postby carol » 21 Apr 2007, 06:43

The Anglican church has a statement of faith in the Book of Common Prayer.

It's popularly known as "The Thirty-nine Articles", as there are 39 separate items, each dealing with different aspects of faith, such as the trinity, the bible, etc.

Anglicans generally find it handy to say that these express their faith, or the faith of the church they belong to. In this generation, I suspect a lot of people have no idea what the 39 Articles say. But in Lewis' day, they probably had to read and study them for confirmation class (before being accepted as adult members of the church).
Image
carol
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3669
Joined: Apr 1999
Location: New Zealand

Postby alecto » 24 Apr 2007, 01:19

rusmeister wrote:Christ is risen!

He is risen indeed!

I's been forever since I've been here. Thanks for all of this information and links to church web sites!
Sentio ergo est.
User avatar
alecto
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Austin, TX

Previous

Return to The Chronicles of Narnia

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 2 guests

cron