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The Last Battle

Please don't close the door behind you.

Postby Pete » 05 Mar 2007, 23:09

Brackish Potato wrote:I thought Tash himself called for the atrocities. Christ never called for the Spanish Inquisition, Wasn't Emeth a faithful follower of Tash who strived to do his will? Human sacrifice was Tash's will. If Emeth was a true seeker, he would have discovered that Tash was not the "Holy, Just and Merciful Creator".


He was a faithful server of Aslan, he just didn't know his real name...it's entirely possible - see my previous post.
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Postby ArdenZ » 06 Mar 2007, 04:03

The timeframe in which Aslan speaks to Emeth is most certainly after the judgement, so it is after death.

A#minor wrote:"When souls have been ill-taught about God, the true God will not let them gaze too long upon the Moloch [or Tash] which men have set up to represent Him. He will turn away their minds from that which men call Him, and fill them with some of His own lovely thoughts or works, such as may by degrees prepare the way for a vision of the Father." George MacDonald


This is a good quote, but why then wasn't Emeth drawn to Aslan? It clearly states that "the name of Aslan was hateful" to him. Once one knows about Christ, he is accountable to a decision.

I just can't put my faith in a scene that is allowing church kids and people (zevonfan88 as an example) to come to the conclusion that all religions lead to Heaven. Just because someone states one thing correctly does not mean that everything he says can be involuntarily bought. I love Lewis' work, but, like anyone else, you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.
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Postby Pete » 06 Mar 2007, 04:21

ArdenZ wrote:This is a good quote, but why then wasn't Emeth drawn to Aslan? It clearly states that "the name of Aslan was hateful" to him. Once one knows about Christ, he is accountable to a decision.


He was drawn to Aslan...he just wasn't drawn to His name.

ArdenZ wrote:I just can't put my faith in a scene that is allowing church kids and people (zevonfan88 as an example) to come to the conclusion that all religions lead to Heaven.


This is far from what it says though, Arden.
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Postby nomad » 06 Mar 2007, 05:05

Living in Calormen, Emeth would have heard all sorts of horrible things attributed to Aslan. That's why he fears Aslan when he sees him. He would have heard wonderful things about Tash. And with all mainstream religions in this world, there are those who interpret it to mean we need to kill heretics, and those who interpret it to mean we should love our neighbor. So if it was similar in Narnia and Calormen, there probably would have been sects of Tash-worshipers who said Tash called for human sacrifices (and they would have been right) and sects who rejected that and said no, Tash wouldn't demand that, because no true god would (and they would be the ones who were drawn closer to Aslan, without knowing it)

And no one here, least of all Lewis, is saying that all religions lead to God. Emeth was not looking for the true Tash - he was looking for the True God. If he had seen the true Tash, he would have rejected him immediately, just as he immediately submitted to the true Aslan when he saw him. In this life, he had gotten as close as he could given the resources he had.

Also, since y'all keep insisting that death is the cut-off point for salvation, where exactly does the Bible say that? I can think of Paul's statement that it is appointed to man once to die, and then the judgement. But that says nothing about a deadline for salvation. Jesus tells parables like the bridesmaids with no oil for their lamps, but again there's no indication that being ready meant kneeling with a copy of the four spiritual laws and explicitly accepting Christ as your lord and savior. In fact, it meant being on the lookout for the bridegroom... which is exactly the state Emeth was in.
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Postby David Jack » 06 Mar 2007, 06:15

Pete wrote:He was drawn to Aslan...he just wasn't drawn to His name.


quite right. the name was immaterial, because Emeth's heart belonged to Aslan, though he didn't know it. it is also worth pointing out that while some 'seekers' from other religions, or no religion, are vouchsafed visions of Jesus and things of that sort which lead them to follow him by name, this does not happen to everyone; else why would it say in romans that we are "judged according to what we know."?

we should be careful of deciding for ourselves who is or is not a 'true seeker'. remember, the seeking does not stop once we know God's name, and perhaps we will be held accountable for our lack of christian character because we did not seek him enough after conversion. perhaps in relative terms Emeth, or some real-life muslim or hindu has made much more spiritual progress than many of us.
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Postby Pete » 06 Mar 2007, 12:58

Lewis would agree with you there, David. :wink:
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Postby UrendiMaleldil » 06 Mar 2007, 13:14

Very well said, David Jack. I've come to Christ, but the work isn't over.

I admire many muslims because of their intense devotion. This admiration always blossoms into a desire to see them come to Christ, but with that an overpowering conviction. Perhaps they look at us and see us as lazy, slobbish Christians, and just a knowledge of that possible perception completely fires me up.

Forgive my long-winded way of agreeing. :blush:
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Postby EmmaG1959 » 12 Mar 2007, 16:41

Messenger_of_Eden wrote:A few weeks ago I was teaching Sunday School for 3rd through 5th graders. This group rabbit trails quite a bit and we had an unsaved kid in there who was acting up too.


What is an unsaved kid??? I'm not a Christian so not up with the jargon, but that made me shudder. How do you know who is saved or not saved?

[quote="Messenger_of_Eden"] Trying to keep him from being a distraction from the main discussion I kept steering it toward our topic. Somehow, the pastor's son (of all people) brought up the "fact" that everyone on earth goes to Heaven. I had to consciously keep my jaw off the floor.
[\quote]
I always thought the message about Emeth was Lewis's view of Christianity, if not yours? If Christianity turns out to be the truth, and only narrow-minded, fundamentalist Christians are saved, then I for one want nothing to do with it. It's not the Christian faith I was raised in (although I've gone on to reject it).
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Postby Guest » 12 Mar 2007, 17:05

EmmaG1959 wrote:What is an unsaved kid??? I'm not a Christian so not up with the jargon, but that made me shudder. How do you know who is saved or not saved?


Emma, I cannot speak for Eden's Messenger, but for most Christians, we believe that salvation occurs when one accepts the gift of salvation through belief in Christ and repentence of sins. That salvation is not limited to adults. Although I'm not a fan of the terms "saved" and "unsaved", I would assume that is what this Sunday School teacher meant.

EmmaG1959 wrote:I always thought the message about Emeth was Lewis's view of Christianity, if not yours?


Emeth wasn't Lewis's view of Christianity (see Mere Christianity for a full disclosure of what Lewis considered true Christianity). He did however represent Lewis's view that although Jesus is the only way to heaven, there are more ways to Jesus than we may think. My agreement with Lewis on this point would be limited.

EmmaG1959 wrote:If Christianity turns out to be the truth, and only narrow-minded, fundamentalist Christians are saved, then I for one want nothing to do with it. It's not the Christian faith I was raised in (although I've gone on to reject it).


I am sorry if the picture of Christianity that has been presented to you is a negative one. Most Christians believe the Bible, and the Bible does show limitations on who is a Christian (saved) and who is not. If that makes the Bible "narrow-minded" in you're opinion or if that makes me a "fundamentalist" for believing it, I am willing to accept that opinion.

My own opinion is that Jesus has offered me a life of Joy in abundance, and that life is offered to all who are willing to come to Him. My opinion is that the Bible was given to me as a guide to aid me in experiencing the fullness of that Joy.

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Postby rusmeister » 15 Mar 2007, 05:28

I'd mostly agree with Dan, although I'd modify it to say "most Christians in the US". Outside the US, most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox, who do not believe in the Protestant doctrine of 'once saved, always saved"(OSAS), but instead believe that a person is always free at a later point to reject God's salvation through Christ. Thus, salvation can occur only after death. (God saves us; it's not something we do for ourselves)

Under OSAS, you can't reject your own salvation later. This doctrine says, "You are already saved", as opposed to the Orthodox doctrine that we are 'being saved'.
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Postby carol » 15 Mar 2007, 08:03

rusmeister wrote: Outside the US, most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox,..


Sorry, your information is not correct. Maybe in some places, but not in places with a British-colonial origin. Like UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Papua New Guinea.... [and of course, USA]
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Postby rusmeister » 15 Mar 2007, 10:13

carol wrote:
rusmeister wrote: Outside the US, most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox,..


Sorry, your information is not correct. Maybe in some places, but not in places with a British-colonial origin. Like UK, NZ, Australia, Canada, Papua New Guinea.... [and of course, USA]


That sort of underlines that it IS a fact. I think you've just listed most of the British colonies. And I'm talking about the whole rest of the world, the salient point being numbers of people, not geographical space (as long as we're talking about 'most Christians').

Catholics are still the most numerous (in terms of sheer numbers of people) confession in the world, and Orthodoxy is second. All Protestants put together, and including sects like Mormons, JWs and others can't outnumber Catholics plus Orthodox. I doubt they'd even outnumber Catholics.

Point is, a clear majority of Christians worldwide do not accept OSAS and that's why I objected to the expression "most Christians".
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Postby Guest » 15 Mar 2007, 17:33

rusmeister wrote:Catholics are still the most numerous (in terms of sheer numbers of people) confession in the world, and Orthodoxy is second.


There are about a billion Roman Catholics in the world, roughly equal to the number of Muslims in the world. The world Protestant population is a little over half a billion, and the Orthodox church rounds out at about 350,000.

rusmeister wrote:Outside the US, most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox, who do not believe in the Protestant doctrine of 'once saved, always saved"


Just to clarify, the doctrine of undonditional security is not a Protestant doctrine. It is a doctrine of one section of protestantism, namely Calvinism.

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Postby rusmeister » 15 Mar 2007, 19:18

Dan65802 wrote:
rusmeister wrote:Catholics are still the most numerous (in terms of sheer numbers of people) confession in the world, and Orthodoxy is second.


There are about a billion Roman Catholics in the world, roughly equal to the number of Muslims in the world. The world Protestant population is a little over half a billion, and the Orthodox church rounds out at about 350,000.

rusmeister wrote:Outside the US, most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox, who do not believe in the Protestant doctrine of 'once saved, always saved"


Just to clarify, the doctrine of undonditional security is not a Protestant doctrine. It is a doctrine of one section of protestantism, namely Calvinism.

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I'll restrict myself to expressing a little doubt at the statistics offered. The figure you give for Protestants is roughly twice the population of the US. That's pretty optimistic, claiming 10% of the world to be Protestant. Outside the US and Western Europe the frequency of Protestants rapidly diminishes to fractions of a percent of local populations. If ALL of the populations of the US and WE were protestant, that figure would fly, but it can't be more than a third of that in the US, and less in WE.

The fundamental baptists I grew up among believed in that unconditional security. It's not limited to Calvinism.
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Postby Guest » 15 Mar 2007, 19:45

rusmeister wrote:I'll restrict myself to expressing a little doubt at the statistics offered. The figure you give for Protestants is roughly twice the population of the US. That's pretty optimistic, claiming 10% of the world to be Protestant.


Okay, I'll be more specific about sources. There are 593 million Protestants in the world (roughly 3 ini 10 Christians). This includes 239 million Protestants in the Americas (about 27% of the region's population), 160 million in Africa (about 16% of the regions's population) and 117 million in Europe (again, about 16%). I found these figures on Wikipedia. They were derived principally from the US State Department's International Religious Freedom Report 2004.

rusmeister wrote:The fundamental baptists I grew up among believed in that unconditional security. It's not limited to Calvinism.


Most fundamental baptist groups are Calvinists.

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