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Postby Dan65802 » August 27th, 2007, 2:30 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby rusmeister » August 27th, 2007, 6:17 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Dan65802 » August 27th, 2007, 6:43 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby rusmeister » August 28th, 2007, 3:34 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Dan65802 » August 28th, 2007, 3:26 pm

You are perhaps correct that it is misleading to post Chesterton's words here out of context. Chesterton justifies his argument against women voting by saying they'd be part of a society that sheds blood and women shouldn't shed blood. However, there is no justification for why women (or priests for that matter) shouldn't be shedders of blood. Does Chesterton elsewhere say that priests shouldn't be allowed to vote either?

I understand that Chesterton must be taken in the context of his time period, but the argument still seems pretty weak here.

- Dan -
"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby rusmeister » August 29th, 2007, 1:58 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
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Postby Coyote Goodfellow » August 29th, 2007, 10:31 am

"I don't care if it is wrong," said one of the moles. "I'd do it again."
"Hush, hush" said the other animals.
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Postby Dan65802 » August 29th, 2007, 1:53 pm

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King
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Postby rusmeister » August 29th, 2007, 6:11 pm

Look, I have the same problems that you do (family, etc.) - except that my job (teacher) is going to kick in in a couple of weeks and then I won't have any time.

Some ideas really are too complex to be treated in this format of posts, and must be addressed in books. I'd hold that the complexities of current gender issues are among them. It's like you want me to explain life, the universe and everything, or colors, by coming out with a few snappy answers. I may have to write my own book (although I think that my field, education, is more appropriate for me to tackle - on how all of you guys get indoctrinated from childhood into the uncommon nonsense the world spouts today - a fortunate minority escape it, but most don't).

It's not reasonable to present my position as an extreme opposite of your own position (canonizing Chesterton as opposed to desiring to debunk him*). * Notice that two can play at that game.

You're right that I'm comfortable with my truth, but I have reason to be - 99% of humanity throughout history is on my side. And I think you might also agree that we admire Lewis, and Chesterton, not because they SAY things, but because they say things that we already know in our hearts to be true.

On F.M-G, I just wanted to give you freedom to pick and choose a topic that might be of interest to you. She's an extremely engaging writer (I would describe Chesterton as a writer that is much more difficult to engage with).
...
OK, here's one that might be of tangential interest:


I should add that Mrs. Mathewes-Greene, aka Frederica is a popular and influential spokeswoman for Orthodox thought - she's not a fringe whacko.

I agree with your reasons for dismissal of tradition (Although 'incorrect is widely open to interpretation)! However, the assumption of what exactly is sin seems to depend on how you cast the issue. For example, you speak of 'barring' women from the military, which assumes that not having women serve would be depriving them of something. In a healthy society, no sane woman would WANT to join the military. The unique tragedy of our society is that we have convinced women that they should adopt the standards of men and seek success and power on the terms of men, rather than hold their own standards of power and success, as all other human societies have done.

On voting, I'll just say that it's obvious that you believe in democracies as they are practiced in the Western world today, and that voting confers some kind of actual power. I no longer believe that. If voting is a joke, then not only does it not matter whether women have the vote or not, it is demeaning to them to even take part in what is a huge joke on men. In a word, they have bought into men's B-S. If that is true, then it is not depriving women of anything at all. Do you see the difficulty and complexity of this? Now you would have to write a book to try to convince me that voting (beyond the village level) has value and is an important patriotic duty. It's the same problem I have of trying to convince you that women should not be soldiers.

Like I said, read the book. It's no shame for me to admit that Chesterton says it a lot better than I can. I simply cheerfully acknowledge that he is right.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
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Postby JRosemary » August 29th, 2007, 7:25 pm

Rus, I keep wanting to respond to you--but then I find myself so much in agreement with Dan's posts that further response from me would seem redundant.

I will say this, however. I'm still smiling at the fact that the great champion of absolute truth and values--and a man that incalcuably influenced Christianity in general and men like Lewis and Chesterton in particular--was also one of the great champions of blurring the distinctions between men and women, at least in so far as those distinctions effect rights and duties.

From The Republic straight on through The Laws, Plato insisted that women should be treated as equals. He wanted them to be educated just as men were and he wanted them to serve their time in the military, just as men were required to. He did own that the average woman might be less effective in the brutal hand-to-hand combat of his day, but he saw ways around that.

(As I've noted before, I'm aware that Plato didn't particularly like women. But he didn't blame women for that--he blamed the culture that kept them cloistered and unfit for rational discourse. Educating women, he seemed to think, could only improve them.)

Lewis often acknowledges his debt to Plato. It's been so long since I've read Chesterston that I can't remember how often he does the same. But my overall impression was that both men appeal to Plato when growing misty eyed about absolute truth--but neither man mentions Plato's strong assertion that roles in society should not be regulated by gender.
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Postby Tuke » August 29th, 2007, 9:51 pm

"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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Postby JRosemary » August 29th, 2007, 10:00 pm

Last edited by JRosemary on August 29th, 2007, 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JRosemary » August 29th, 2007, 10:18 pm

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Postby Tuke » August 30th, 2007, 1:06 am

Last edited by Tuke on August 30th, 2007, 12:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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Postby Tuke » August 30th, 2007, 1:48 am

Last edited by Tuke on August 30th, 2007, 8:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.
"The 'great golden chain of Concord' has united the whole of Edmund Spenser's world.... Nothing is repressed; nothing is insubordinate. To read him is to grow in mental health." The Allegory Of Love (Faerie Queene)

2 Corinthians IV.17 The Weight of Glory
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