When Susan stopped believing

[agingjb]

So I assume that CSL (in full "sounding brass and tinkling cymbal" mode) became so exasperated with an individual (as I suppose) or a group (as others deduce) that he decided that in his "subcreation" (as he and Tolkien seem to have called their fiction) "someone's got to be summonsed - so that was decided upon".

But, as the fictional Lady of Venus remarked about stories, counterfactuals about Maleldil are intolerable. Hmm.

(And sounding brass and tinkling cymbal do actually make a very acceptable music.)

[splashen]

"because in Splashen's quote of what I've, there is alot of stuff I didn't actually say.

For instance, I've never said Susan was my favorite character ... because she wasn't."

That was my mistake, Archenland. When I was quoting your post, I couldn't break down the post properly & ended up getting all my views mixed in with your earlier post.

Susan was [i]my[i] favourite character.

[archenland_knight]

[Larry W.]

[splashen]

"What I wondered about was why she would be no longer considered a friend of Narnia if she had true gentleness,"

It was Peter who described Susan as being "no longer a friend of Narnia." The reason he said this is because, unlike all the others who had been to Narnia, Susan allowed her worldliness to choke out all memory of her adventures there, & remember it all "as funny games they all used to play," as children.

"and then for Aslan to reject her in [i]The Last Battle[i]. "

Where did it say in [i]The Last Battle[i] that Aslan totally rejected here? Aslan doesn't even mention Susan's loss of faith in LB. Only her brother, her cousin, Polly & Jill do, & even they do not wish any sort of eternal Punishment for her.

The fact that she alone, of the entire family does not die at the end of the series means that Susan had potential to repent of her going astray.

[Larry W.]

When Peter said "no longer a friend" he was referring at least in part to her worldliness (her mistake of course), but it's somewhat baffling that he said she was no longer a friend of Narnia because of that mistake. It would seem that the love of Aslan (like the love of God) was unconditional. When King David of the Bible committed his sins I don't think he ceased to be man after God's own heart (or God's friend) in spite of what he did. Would it be any different with Susan and her relationship with Aslan as being a friend of Narnia? I'm not sure that friendship (in its purest quality) depends entirely on one's behavior.

Larry W.

[splashen]

"but, it's somewhat baffling that he said no longer a friend of Narnia because of that mistake."

No, not baffling at all. You see, earlier in the story, when Peter & the others saw King Tirian in a vision, in danger, he had yelled out to Tirian that they all were the 7 Friends of Narnia. So when Tirian later met them all in person, he asked Peter what became of Susan, & Peter replied in the only way he could: That due to her loss of belief in Narnia, she could not be described as a Friend of Narnia.

[Larry W.]

Peter said that, but was it consistent with Aslan's appointing him, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy as permanent kings and queens? Many Christians (including myself and my own church) believe in preservation of the saints. "Once a king or queen, always a king or queen" is a very similar promise. If Aslan is like Christ, he will keep that promise too. That promise was made to all four of the children. A person like Susan would not become an enemy of Aslan or Christ because of a mistake that they made because Aslan (or Christ) would always keep the promise of loving and preserving his own people. Susan was Aslan's because he chose her from the beginning, and nothing that she did would be able to cancel out that choice.

Larry W.

[splashen]

"Peter said that, but was it consistent with Aslan's appointing him, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy as permanent kings and queens?"

Perhaps in a certain way, Peter did not take that into consideration when he described his sister as no longer a "Friend of Narnia." That was [i]Peter's description of her.[i] Not Aslan's. That is also probably why Aslan(or Christ)Willed it to be that Susan was nowhere around the train station, unlike her entire family, in order to bring about her repentance, & ultimately restore her predestination as a Queen of Narnia.

Peter said Susan was no longer a friend of Narnia. He did not say she was no longer a friend of Aslan.

[Larry W.]

It's difficult to imagine that someone could still be a friend of Aslan and not be a friend of Narnia. Narnia was actually a benevolent theocracy ruled by Aslan and to a lesser degree, by its kings and queens. In a sense, the state and church were not separated-- something which would not work in a democracy (like my own country) but was practical in that monarchy. With Narnia so completely under Aslan the moral standards of the country and its ruler were largely one and the same. If you were a friend of the Lion you would almost have to swear complete loyalty to the country as well, except of course if you were living at the time of Miraz. Generally speaking, a friendship with the king also meant an allegiance to the kingdom.

Larry W.

[splashen]

"Generally speaking, a friendship with the king also meant an allegiance to the kingdom."

True, but, I was being kind of allegorical. Our sins in general, weaken our friendship with God. But, God IS Always Calling us back to be His children again.

It is only when we are impenitent right up to death, that we are lost for ever.

I truly believe that Aslan could see in Susan, someone whom he could win back, just as he saw in in her younger brother(LWW), & in her cousin(VDT), hence his willing it that she should not have been in the train wreck at the time with the rest of her own family.

[archenland_knight]

[Larry W.]

If I believe in the doctrine I see nothing wrong with mentioning it here since it is something that relates to the story. You may agree or disagree with the doctrine since it was merely brought up as an opinion. It is a concept worthy of consideration for all Christians. It's an idea extracted from theology, but it certainly is worthy of discussion here.

You said emphatically that Lewis did not believe in "preservation of the saints". I never actually stated that Lewis was a Calvinist or anything like that. Actually, I don't remember reading anything negative that he said about Calvinists. Did he ever specifically mention his views on the Presbyterian, Christian Reformed, or Reformed Churches? He was from the Anglican church, but he loved all Christians equally and had no strong bias against those of other denominations. I wonder if you had asked Lewis, "If once Christ (or Aslan) claimed you as His own, would he continue to preserve you for all time as He promised to do?" I wonder what Lewis would have said in response. Perhaps something like "No one shall snatch them out of my hand". It is the faithfulness of God in His promises to His own people. That of course, has much more to do what's in Scripture than the beliefs or theology of any particular denomination.

Larry W.

[Bluegoat]

[archenland_knight]