This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Please don't close the door behind you.

Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby fantasia_kitty » May 15th, 2009, 1:42 pm

Hey everybody, it's been quite a while since I've posted here though I'm a regular lurker. :smile: But I did want to jump on this morning and invite everyone over to a NarniaWeb reading group that we're really excited about. Dr. Devin Brown (author of Inside Narnia) has kindly offered us an original essay called "Are The Chronicles of Narnia Sexist and Racist? A Discussion in Eight Parts" and each week we'll be posting a new section and discussing it. We're hoping to get as many fans of the books as possible to join, and maybe even some Narnia haters. :lipssealed:
You can check it out here and see if you're interested. Hope to see a lot of you there!
fantasia_kitty
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Kansas

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby peterlloyd » May 18th, 2009, 1:39 am

are you kidding me?
peterlloyd
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Oct 2008

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby Leslie » May 18th, 2009, 1:59 pm

By the current standards, yes, Lewis was sexist. But his views were fairly typical for someone of his era and education. Reading the works of many of his contemporaries will reveal similar views.

As for racism, again by our standards, there are scattered phrases in his writing that could be interpreted as racist. But it is only really since the end of the Second World War and the flourishing of the civil rights movement that racism has been seen as an evil. Legislation and social morality entrenched racism in Western European and North American culture in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It could be argued Lewis was perhaps remarkably tolerant for his time.
"What are you laughing at?"
"At myself. My little puny self," said Phillipa.
--Rumer Godden, In This House of Brede
User avatar
Leslie
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1814
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby rusmeister » May 20th, 2009, 7:45 pm

I'd say that by Lewis's standards the current (fashionable) standards are the ones that are deeply wrong, most especially in understanding what "sexist" means and in thinking they have a superior understanding of the basis for his views.
"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby john » May 20th, 2009, 7:50 pm

I think I should know better, Rus, but you almost sound like you believe that wanting equality for genders and races is a trend to be avoided. Would you like to clarify?
john
Chief Wardrobian
User avatar
john
Chief Wardrobian
 
Posts: 6495
Joined: Jul 1996
Location: near seattle

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby rumzy » May 21st, 2009, 2:19 am

Let me first start off by saying that I love the Chronicles of Narnia and C.S. Lewis. I think he was a deeply devoted Christian, a profound thinker, and, perhaps, the best storyteller I have had the pleasure to encounter (besides my grandpa). I don't think he was ever intentionally racist or bigoted. However, as someone of Arab descent, I did recognize the old familiar references to "Oriental backwardness" in The Horse and His Boy. It is obvious that Tashbaan is modeled after a big middle eastern city, probably Cairo or Instanbul or Damascus (smell of garlic, scimitars instead of swords, and other descriptions of the city, domes etc...). The name Tashbaan while not meaning anything in Arabic has the double "A" used in transliteration to designate a long vowel sound not found in English. The dark skinned Calormene men wear robes and turbans. So what's the big deal? Well, the men are rude and given to violence. The prince I think tries to force Susan to marry him. Shasta's "father" agrees to sell him. Etc... At the end, the prince is turned into a donkey, a profound insult to an Arab. Throughout the series, Narnia (which is very obviously European) is shown to be cleaner, stronger militarily, and more fair than the rude, crude, and backward Calormen. The point here is that Lewis did have a bit of racial bigotry (though I think we all do somewhere inside) that he probably was not even aware of. This in no way discounts his writings. The Space Trilogy I think is an example of the ideal which Lewis wanted to live up to. The inhabitants of Malacandra live in absolute peace and cooperation without prejudice. Weston is the perfect picture of how silly Lewis considered racial bigotry to be. So, was he racist? I don't think so. Did he have some subconscious prejudices? Yes, but so do you and I. Lucky for us, the whole world isn't scrutinizing our lives.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
User avatar
rumzy
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby rusmeister » May 21st, 2009, 4:36 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby Mark » May 26th, 2009, 6:30 pm

Regards all,
I think that one of the main themes throughout the Chronicles (and indeed other Lewis works as well) is that of choice. All of his characters no matter their race or sex make moral choices that reveal who they are. In regards to sexism, is it not Diggory who first brings evil into Narnia, and is it not Edmund who betrays the Pevensie children? In regards to racism, are there not slavers in the Lone Islands, is Uncle Andrew not a Englishman? Emeth is a noble Calorman, and Aravis is a noble woman and Calorman. Any of Lewis's characters has the potential for nobility or evil. At the end of The Last Battle, Tashbaan still stands, so there must have been some nobility there worth saving. It is their choices, not their race or sex that makes the characters of the Chronicles who they are. Cheers.
Mark
Mark
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mar 2009

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby Mornche Geddick » May 31st, 2009, 3:52 pm

Calormen, far from being rude and crude, is a highly civilised society, capable of high art (architecture, landscape gardening, sculpture, poetry and storytelling, and probably several others). Its vices are the characteristic vices of an over-civilised, highly stratified society in which there is a huge divide between the rich and poor and in which public opinion is powerless to control the excesses of those at the top....now where have I seen a society like that before?

Rusmeister, when you attack Title IX, let me point out to you that sociologists cannot "force" people to do anything - it was the girls themselves who wanted to play soccer, basketball and ice hockey. And there is a good deal of evidence that doing sport often enough to learn it well is extremely good for girls, not only physically but mentally as well.
Mornche Geddick
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 57
Joined: May 2008

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby rusmeister » May 31st, 2009, 6:49 pm

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby nomad » June 1st, 2009, 1:39 am

Beautiful post rumzy. I'm glad to hear your opinion, and I think you are spot on in this case. I would only add that I don't think the Calormenes were based on any real city or the real arab people, but rather (and quite consciously) on the mythology and imagery, both Arab and European, that filtered back to Europe through [i]Arabian Nights[i], the crusades, and painters such as Delacroix. I have to wonder if, in writing CON, Lewis ever thought about the real culture associated with that mythology and imaginary world. There is certainly a fair dose of the stereotypes, but Lewis did not have the insight of Edward Said, as we do. And there is somewhere in his non-fiction where he writes that he hopes we never discover life on another planet, because we will surely oppress it as England had done with so much of it's empire. It's a passage which reveals him as surprisingly anti-British Empire (and remember it still existed through much of his life).
member of the 2456317 club
"Well," said Pooh, "what I like best -- " and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.
User avatar
nomad
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: I wish I knew

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby rusmeister » June 1st, 2009, 4:58 am

"Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength
User avatar
rusmeister
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Russia

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby Sven » June 11th, 2009, 7:28 pm

I split off the digression regarding rights and the UN. It has been moved to the Current Affairs forum.
Rat! he found breath to whisper, shaking. Are you afraid?
Afraid? murmured the Rat, his eyes shining with unutterable love.
Afraid! Of Him? O, never, never! And yet -- and yet -- O, Mole, I am afraid!
Then the two animals, crouching to the earth, bowed their heads and did worship.
User avatar
Sven
 
Posts: 2883
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Greenbelt, MD, near Washington DC

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby postodave » June 12th, 2009, 5:17 pm

Thanks Sven - it makes sense really
So I drew my sword and got ready
But the lamb ran away with the crown
postodave
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 848
Joined: Oct 2004

Re: Was C. S. Lewis sexist/racist? Join our discussion!

Postby Larry W. » December 21st, 2009, 1:04 pm

It might have been better with some more good Calormenes besides Emeth. People from other races weren't always so polite either-- consider Eustace at the beginning. However, it is hard not to get a negative portrayal of Calormene culture when they are shown as being rude and unfriendly for the most part with a few exceptions such as Lasalareen, who was friendly and likable but somewhat silly. All this doesn't make The Horse and His Boy a bad book, although it might have been better with more positive characterizations of the people who loved south of Narnia and Archenland. Lewis' saying that the Narnians were for "Narnia and the North" wasn't intended to be negative, but maybe he should have more for the southerners as well. :snow-smile:

Larry W.
Larry W.
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Western Michigan

Next

Return to The Chronicles of Narnia

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 18 guests

cron