This forum was closed on October 1st, 2010. However, the archives are open to the public and filled with vast amounts of good reading and information for you to enjoy. If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

Ch 3b: pp 24-28

For the Medieval Dinosaur in all of us.

Ch 3b: pp 24-28

Postby Stanley Anderson » April 18th, 2007, 5:05 pm

(Seven paragraphs beginning with "After foretelling his grandson's future..." to the end of the Scipio section ending with "...which a medieval theologian would have added.")

In the original study, Monica had posted some ideas that led into this section, so I had used them as a starting point. I’m reproducing them here too, although I’m modifying them slightly as well as my replies to make them a little clearer in the current context (the original comments had confusing references unique to events at the time of the original study)

[from Monica]:
>Just a couple of thoughts. First is the injunction against suicide. I
>can't remember if suicide is mentioned in Narnia or not, but I
>remember Orual attempting it in TWHF and being summarily
>stopped. Interesting how somewhere before or during the Middle
>Ages suicide became -- not something honourable as in other times
>and countries -- but something disallowed.

And of course we see a whole slew of suicides at the end of THS, the implication that they have been "dictated" by the dark macrobes (of hell) and that the defeated NICE personnel have become too subsumed to resist it.

Probably a different subject, but I wonder how Lewis would view the enchanted sleep that one of the seven Lords (was it Rhoop? Not sure) voluntarily "went under" on Ramandu's island in order to "escape" the horrors of he had experienced on the Dark Island. That seems to be at least one of the motivations of people tempted to suicide in depression-related situations. But of course I'm sure the enchanted sleep was seen as a healing thing and not as a "permanent" escape from all life as suicide is.

[from Monica]
>Another interesting point concerns the
>astronomical thought of the day. Lewis says the earth was
>considered a very small body in the universe. Compared to the size
>of the stars, the entire Roman Empire was little more than a dot. The
>insignificance of the earth "was part of the moralists stock-in-
>trade…to mortify human ambition". Yet, Later in history, when the
>'new science' changed the architecture of the universe, moralists
>said the opposite -- they said that God couldn't possibly care about
>the earth when it was such an insignificant part of the universe. It
>was an argument that caused many to lose their religion, though it
>was the same argument used centuries before to support it.

I would also point out (or perhaps just re-emphasize) that the medieval view has been twisted by modern science and common understanding so that the modern view of man's insignificance can be seen (incorrectly) as a contrast to the supposed “glorified Earth” medieval view. In other words, moderns imagine that since medieval cosmology put the earth at the center, this meant that Medievals were putting man on a pedestal, as it were, and glorying in that position. But in fact, by putting earth at the center, Medievals were more implying that earth was at the “bottom of the heap” and that Man was insignificant for that reason.

That incorrect modern impression of the Medieval view leads to the rather condescending view that Medievals were "obviously" stupider than we, sort of like the modern common misunderstanding that thinks that Medievals thought the world was flat. (Lewis will bring this up more than once in side-comments throughout the book. In fact, in light of Lewis’ insistence about the modern error of thinking that Medievals viewed the world as flat, it would be interesting at some point to discuss the idea of Narnia being a flat world. What was Lewis’ point there, I wonder?)

--Stanley
…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Re: Ch 3b: pp 24-28

Postby Stanley Anderson » April 18th, 2007, 8:39 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Postby girlfreddy » April 23rd, 2007, 5:38 am

Sorry I'm late in posting Stanley. Anyway here's a few things about this part that I found interesting.

That the "belief" or "prohibition" of suicide could not be tracked down to an original source by Lewis who, in my opinion, was one of the most well read and educated men of our time. I mean everyone believes that suicide is a sin or at the very least a waste of life and not to be entered in at all, but to not be able to find the original beginning of this belief was something that I had never thought of before.

It makes me consider the argument that some Christian's use for the reality of God in that there is a internal moral code built in man that is somewhat universal. An example would be that there is no known culture that gives a man the right to take any woman he wants to use for sex. Even in tribal cultures where the white man has had little to no influence a man may not "take" another man's wife to have sex with. It seems to be a human characteristic that we place limits on ourselves for the welfare of all. And I think that suicide would fall into this category because if people's of a culture (especially tribal) were to think of the taking of one's own life to be a good thing, many of us would not be here.

I was also quite intrigued by the military metaphor as this has been more than considered in the history of Christianity. "Onward Christian Soldiers" comes to mind along with the Crusades (however failed or misguided they were). Paul references a military supposition in Ephesians as to the armor we are to don and spiritual warfare is a word bandied about much these days in churches. Just kind of cool to see it here in that we owe our lives to God (or the gods) and it would be a disaster for us to think that we have a say in taking such a valuable asset and disposing of it like garbage.

And something that I'm looking forward to reading is about the harmonistic interpretation that had been reached before the Middle Ages had begun concerning appointments to heaven for I have little to no knowledge of the paganistic ideas around this.

Thanks for continuing this. I'm quite enjoying this although there is much I google up to find out what Lewis is talking about. I'm also re-reading the Space trilogy to get a better handle on your references to it. I don't have a copy of the Chronicles so I'll have to cede to your vast knowledge of that.
How would telling people to be nice to one another get a man crucified? What government would execute Mister Rogers or Captain Kangaroo?
Philip Yancey

http://girlfreddy.wordpress.com/
User avatar
girlfreddy
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 2316
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Stanley Anderson » April 23rd, 2007, 4:22 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California

Postby girlfreddy » April 23rd, 2007, 6:12 pm

Have fun this weekend Stanley. And I really hope that Gawain has a wonderful time and doesn't get too stressed out. :toothy-grin:
How would telling people to be nice to one another get a man crucified? What government would execute Mister Rogers or Captain Kangaroo?
Philip Yancey

http://girlfreddy.wordpress.com/
User avatar
girlfreddy
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 2316
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: chap 3b

Postby liriodendron » May 7th, 2007, 2:58 pm

liriodendron
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Apr 2007

Re: chap 3b

Postby Stanley Anderson » May 8th, 2007, 8:50 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
User avatar
Stanley Anderson
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3251
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Southern California


Return to The Discarded Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 1 guest

cron