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On not pronouncing the Name...

On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » February 11th, 2009, 2:51 pm

A Catholic friend of mine sent me today. (I hope it's ok to post it here--it's addressed to the Bishops' Conferences.) As I understand it, it's a directive to Catholic Churches to stop pronouncing the actual name of God: the Yod He Vav He (the names of the letters that comprise it) or so-called 'Tetragrammaton.' According to my friend, no one pronounced the name before Vactican II, but it's crept into practice since then.

I'll admit that hearing the Name (and I have heard it from Christian pulpits) makes me cringe. Once, when I read a passage for a wedding or something, the Bible in the church even had the Name written out. I just substituted 'Lord,' which, fortunately, didn't seem to upset anyone.

True, once upon a time even Jews might have pronounced the Name, but even if that's so, it hasn't been the case, probably, for a couple of thousand years. In fact, if you're used to reading biblical or prayer-book Hebrew in a synagogue setting, you wouldn't even think to pronounce the Name. Your brain automatically switches the Name to either Adonai (which means 'Lord') or HaShem (which means 'the Name.) As a rule of thumb, we use Adonai in synagogues and for formal blessings and prayers. Outside of the synagogue you're more likely to hear HaShem.

Does this really matter? Is saying or not saying the Name that big a deal?

I think so. First of all, no one's even sure of the correct pronunciation--or the exact meaning. All we know is that the Name is related to the verb 'to be' and that it has to do with the ground of being itself. I think there's an argument to treat such a name with profound respect--and to approach it with such reverence that we hold it in the depths of our hearts rather than on our tongues.

That said, I think it's possible to get carried away in reverence. Since 'God' is not the Name, I write 'God' out, rather than following the example of some Jews who prefer 'G-d.' And some people won't use any word for God unless they're actually praying. So, for example, they won't say the word Elohenu, 'our God,' outside of a formal context. They say 'elokenu' instead. That leads to the joke about the seriously devout fellow who went into a restaraunt and ordered a ginger kale...oh, never mind. :wink:
Last edited by JRosemary on February 11th, 2009, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Bluegoat » February 11th, 2009, 4:56 pm

Hmm, as a non-Jew, I have always associated the idea of not pronouncing God's name in Judaism with not depicting him in images. I assumed they were two versions of the same thing, and were meant to remind people or emphasize the way in which God was beyond our understanding. I don't think anyone ever actually told me that though.

As a Christian, I don't see the issue as being quite the same, since I think Jesus was God, but since he was actually also a person, he could be depicted or named. So for me, this suggests we can depict God within the images he has given us to work with, both pictorially and in print. So perhaps we call God Father, or show him as a father-like figure. However, words on a page are more of an abstraction that a pictorial representation, so I think there is a natural protection in using them that can prevent people from taking images too literally. I believe, though I don't know much about it, that this is the approach used with icons in the Eastern Church, they have an abstract quality to them on purpose.

As far as the name of God goes, I think that if God actually gave it to us, we could use it. Is it actually supposed to be his "real" name? That doesn't seem terribly plausible to me - I think any communication God has with us involves him "translating" so to speak.

I'd be interested to know what the RC explanation for this is.
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » February 11th, 2009, 5:16 pm

JRose:

You've managed to start this discussion in an excellent spirit, stating your feelings without setting it up so that those who might feel differently won't necessarily feel a need to turn it into a debate.

First of all, reverence for God's Holy Name is very important. Our society comes close to practically ignoring the Commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name." - Ex 20:7 People treat the very word "God" as if it were a curse word. You wouldn't do that with the name of another human, would you? But we'll do that to God? Bizzarre ... and sacreligious.

But from the Christian perspective, or at least from the Protestant Sola-Scriptura perspective, the commandment only says not to misuse His Name. It does not say, "Never speak His Name." In fact, we see the people in the Torah speaking his name all the time.



So, if you read through the Old Testament, you see the people speaking His Name, though the Godly always do so with the greatest of reverence. An example I found practically at random is 1 Samuel 23:10-11. So from our perspective, speaking His Name, or as close to the pronunciation as we can actually get, would not be sin if it were done with the greatest reverence and respect we can give Him.

In fact, we would take such passages as 1Chronicles 16:8 and Psalm 105:1, both of which say, "Give thanks to the LORD, call on his name; make known among the nations what he has done," to be an actual command to speak His Name in both prayer and preaching His Word.

So, that's the perspective of many Protestants on the subject. Clearly it is quite different from the perspective of many Jewish people, both Christian/Messianic and otherwise.
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » February 11th, 2009, 5:51 pm

Hey Bluegoat & Archenland Knight!

I'll repsond to both of you in turn:

Bluegoat,

The Catholic Church, like Judaism, regards the Yod He Vav He as the "proper name" of God (as the letter to the Bishops' Conference I linked above puts it.) Actually, I kinda assumed that all Christian churches so regarded it--but perhaps that's not the case. (I know much less about Protestantism.)

In the Hebrew Bible, there are many different ways of referring to God. The Yod He Vav He (as AK points out, you'll see it rendered in English as YHWH, but I'll replace it with HaShem from now on) is possibly the most famous and Jews and Catholics regard it as His 'real' name. But there are other ways of referring to Him.

God reveals Himself to Moses not only as HaShem but as Ehyeh asher Ehyeh, which is probably best translated as "I will be what I will be." (I don't know where the common English translation--I am that I am--comes from.)

El simply means God. Not the Name, just God. El Shaddai is a somewhat obscure reference--El, again, means God, but Shaddai is difficult to translate. It may be a place-name, or it may have the connotation of 'Mighty' or 'Overpowering.' It may have something to do with mountains...and some people even think it's derived from a word for, believe it or not, breasts.

There's Elohenu, which means 'our God.' And there's Elohim, which is generally used as a singular to mean 'God' but is technically a plural word. (It's used in the plural sense in Exodus 20:3--You shall have no other gods--elohim--before me.) There are, however, other examples of a plural word being used as a singular in Hebrew.

There are many more ways besides these. All these different ways of referring to God have different connotations. (And they have great significance to scholars who get involved with all the who-wrote-what-when debates.)

And, unfortunately, you lose most of this in translation. I know most of us aren't scholars and don't have the time to learn Biblical Hebrew--but we should, if we take the Hebrew Scriptures seriously. And if we can't do that, we should at least get a translation with mounds of footnotes that gives in-depth information on the Hebrew.

(I know you Christians have it harder, of course, since you should be learning Koine Greek too in order to read the New Testament!)

However, I will say this. Biblical Hebrew is not as hard as most of us imagine. How easy it is depends on how easily we pick up languages...but either way it's not rocket science.

Archenland Knight,

I agree that Jews probably pronounced the Name more freely at one point--but probably not since at least the 3rd century BCE. (It may still have been pronounced by the Kohanim within the Temple after that, but it hasn't been since the Temple was destroyed.)

The tradition of not pronouncing the Name, however, is over 2000 years old. Moreover, no one's sure of the pronunciation. Moreover still--well, you're dealing with an ineffable name that refers to the ground of being and existence itself. I still find that a convincing argument for not speaking it--especially since we can't even be sure of getting the pronunciation right. :anxious:

When I read the Bible in Hebrew (or the prayerbook) my eyes see the Name, but I'm just used to automatically substituting Adonai or HaShem. And when I pray non-formal prayers--that is, not official 'brachas' or blessings--I usually use HaShem. (As in, "HaShem, please get me through this awful day!" when things are going wrong.)

I would never criticize anyone for pronouncing the Name from a Christian pulpit. But I honestly don't think they should--especially as so many people, not just Jews, feel that it should not be pronounced and are likely to be offended.But I can chalk it up to a genuine--and understandable--difference of opinion.

However, it really bothers me to hear the Name bandied about casually--usually by people taking their first Religion course in college. (But sometimes by experienced professors.) And in that, I think we can agree!

~Rose
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » February 11th, 2009, 7:30 pm

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » February 11th, 2009, 8:03 pm

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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » February 11th, 2009, 8:29 pm

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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » February 11th, 2009, 9:26 pm

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Karen » February 11th, 2009, 9:49 pm

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » February 11th, 2009, 10:26 pm

Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby JRosemary » February 12th, 2009, 2:35 am

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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby friendofbill » February 13th, 2009, 9:42 pm

I've no wish to be a "devil's advocate," but the question occurs to me: could the Infinite, Eternal, Ultimate Ground of All Being, the One Who fills and sustains a universe 15+ billion years old and so big that the numbers cause the mind to shrivel and hide, The Almighty ... even be said to "have a name?"

Is not a "name" simply a set of syllables uttered to call to mind that which they are, by common assent, signifying?

God advised us that his "name" is I AM, which is a verb, not a descriptor. Surely the Tetragrammaton is no more His "name" than "God" is His name. To Abraham, His name was El or El Shaddai ... and yet no one balks at pronouncing those names. He was variously called Elohim (a plural, interestingly enough) and/or Adonai. One needs some symbol, either verbal or visible, by which to convey from one mind to another the concept the name or symbol is supposed to signify. My point, then, is that to pronounce any of the names of God, including the Tetragrammaton, is merely to pronounce some sounds men made up so they could talk about God. If He has a "name" at all, it is the verb I AM.

Or so it seems to me. JMHO.

There is much to be learned about name mythology; a good place to start is with Ernst Cassirer's Language and Myth, or with Suzanne Langer's Philosophy in a New Key.

Shalom aleichem
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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby archenland_knight » February 14th, 2009, 3:37 am

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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Bluegoat » February 14th, 2009, 12:35 pm

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Re: On not pronouncing the Name...

Postby Karen » February 14th, 2009, 2:27 pm

I think you guys meant JRosemary, not me. :smile:
I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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