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Age

Age

Postby Theophilus » June 9th, 2009, 3:45 pm

A physician who has made a complete examination of a person could probably make a good estimate of his age without having been told what it is because of his knowledge of how the aging process works. But what would happen if he were to travel back in time and examine Adam and Eve before the fall and was then asked to estimate their age? Because they were created to live forever they wouldn't have undergone the same aging process we do today. If he examined them just a few days after their creation he would give a high extimate of their ages because they would appear to be the same as adults he had examined in the past.

Suppose he went back to some time after their fall. Now they would be subject to the same aging process we experience today. If he was unaware of their past he would make an estimate based on the assumption that they had been born in the same was as other people and would make an age estimate based on that assumption. (I know that people lived longer then, so for the purposes of this example I am assuming that the doctor was aware of this fact and took it into consideration. I am also assuming that he didn't notice their lack of navels, since this would have warned him that there was something different about them.) His estimate of their age would probably be off, but whether it was too high or too low would depend on how much time had elapsed between their creation and their fall.

Scientist who try to figure out the age of the universe are facing the same situation as the doctor in the second example. They assume that all of the physical processes, such as entropy, have been going on since the universe began. But the Bible tells us that this is not the case. God cursed the ground because of Adam's sin. But it seems that the whole universe is under a curse, which will be lifted at the same time as the resurrection of believers. "The creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Romans 8:21. It is likely that the entire universe was affected by the rebellion of Satan and that is the reason for the condition it is in today. Since we don't know how much time elapsed between the creation and the fall of Satan it is impossible to discover the true age of the universe.
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Re: Age

Postby cyranorox » June 9th, 2009, 5:46 pm

Apocatastasis Now!
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Re: Age

Postby Bluegoat » June 10th, 2009, 11:57 am

I'm of the view that the universe as we know it became as it was after the fall - Entropy, other physical processes. The time in the garden was different, perhaps rather more like what the new Earth will be like, out of time and just different.

Some people think that the Fall actually happened at the very moment of actual creation. I believe St Augustine may have shared that point of view, though I may be thinking of something else.

In any case, it is surly one of the assumptions of science that the same process apply throughout the universe, and into the past and future (which perhaps come down to the same thing anyway.) It is pretty much an assumption of philosophy too, and since my knowledge of God is based on reason, if I decide that the rules of reason in the past might well be different, it could conceivably be that there was no need for a first cause in the past - and poof, there goes God.

I'm not sure we can have it both ways.
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Re: Age

Postby friendofbill » June 10th, 2009, 12:29 pm

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Re: Age

Postby Bluegoat » June 10th, 2009, 1:35 pm

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Re: Age

Postby Stanley Anderson » June 10th, 2009, 3:10 pm

…on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a fair green country under a swift sunrise.
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Re: Age

Postby Theophilus » June 10th, 2009, 3:30 pm

There are some points I need to clarify about my original post. I said that the condition of the universe was probably caused by the rebellion of Satan, not the sin of Adam and Eve. In my post "A New Earth" I pointed out that the six days apparently involved a restoration of the earth from a state of chaos. I believe that this chaotic condition was the result of Satan's fall, not that of Adam.

I agree that everything was created for God's pleasure, so it is possible that the universe might have existed for billions of years. I merely pointed out that scientists cannot accurately measure its age if they start out by incorrectly assuming that everything has always gone on as it does now and God has never intervened in his creation.

While the universe was not made for man, God evidently did create the present world for us because he gave Adam dominion over it and one of the effects of Adam's sin was that the ground was cursed.
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Re: Age

Postby Bluegoat » June 10th, 2009, 5:13 pm

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Re: Age

Postby Bluegoat » June 10th, 2009, 5:16 pm

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Re: Age

Postby friendofbill » June 10th, 2009, 8:27 pm

Indeed, if there was a "fall of creation," it must have happened at the very beginning. Paul speaks of creation having been "subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope that the creation itself will be liberqted from its bondage..." What could "the will of the one who subjected it" mean other than (a) the will of God or (b) the will of Satan? It certaily could not mean the will of Adam. And I am one who rejects the idea that Satan, if he exists at all, could frustrate the will of God in any way.

Science tells us that at the immediate instant of the big bang (like, just befor it went "bang"), the four major physicak forces were one unified force, and that in the nanosecond after it went "bang" they separated into the four forces we know now. Was that a "fall?" Was that in fact the beginning of the "frustration" of the creation, the origin of entropy and its consequences, disaster and disease? That would make sense, IMO, of Paul's assertions in Romans 8. It would mean that in the instant that God said "shazam" and made the singularity that went "bang," it was foreordained that the consequences of "bang" would prevail -- so that, in a sense, He Himself subjeected the entire future of the univere to frustration. Perhaps so we'll appreciate it better when we see Him fix it at the other end of the timeline? Or perhaps because it was the game He wanted to play "for His pleasure."

I do not presume to be either an expert on quantum physics nor an expert on Pauline theology, though i had to study the one in college and the other in seminary. And I know that logic can carry one just so far, especially in the metaphysical realm., and then it drops one like a brick and says "go figure." So whatever I'm posting here is IMO; essentially, the conviction with which I am comfortable right now. I just don't want to come across as pontificating the "right answer" for anyone.
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Re: Age

Postby Theophilus » June 11th, 2009, 3:09 pm

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Re: Age

Postby Theophilus » June 11th, 2009, 3:17 pm

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Re: Age

Postby friendofbill » June 11th, 2009, 5:17 pm

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Re: Age

Postby Bluegoat » June 11th, 2009, 6:36 pm

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Re: Age

Postby Theophilus » June 12th, 2009, 3:17 pm

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