PLEASE NOTE: These forums were closed on October 1st, 2010, and have been set to "read only" with registration disabled.
If you wish to meet some Wardrobians, please visit the Into the Wardrobe Facebook group.

ghosts and christianity

ghosts and christianity

Postby guzzle221 » 02 Jun 2006, 04:11

how does Christianity explain ghost sitings, and proven spirits dwelling? i have been told in the past that Christianity does not accept the existance of ghosts and spirit. Please give me an answer.
guzzle221
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Denver, CO

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby Pete » 02 Jun 2006, 05:20

guzzle, the Bible would seem to suggest that angels and demons (spirits) do exist. As for ghosts well...in that context they're probably most likely to be the angels or demons (more likely demons IMO). But whoever told you that Christianity doesn't accept the ignorance of them...I'd be wondering how much the person knows of the Bible.
Member of The 2456317 Club

Image
User avatar
Pete
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 4469
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Cranbourne West, Victoria, Australia

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby robsia » 02 Jun 2006, 07:40

Interesting that you think of angels and demons as spirits. Reading the Bible, the descriptions of appearances of angels seem to clearly suggest that angels are physical beings as we are - they can even be mistaken for human beings - I remember a quote about being kind to strangers for you may be entertaining angels unaware.

As the inhabitants of hell are merely former angels, it would be logical to suppose that they are also physically identical to angels.
User avatar
robsia
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3725
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Incognito no longer

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby Pete » 02 Jun 2006, 09:12

They can take on physical form, yes, but just as God is described as being Spirit so they are also.
Member of The 2456317 Club

Image
User avatar
Pete
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 4469
Joined: Aug 1996
Location: Cranbourne West, Victoria, Australia

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby robsia » 02 Jun 2006, 11:20

So, you see them as being spirits that can manifest in corporeal form, so not like ghosts at all then?
User avatar
robsia
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3725
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Incognito no longer

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby Tony » 02 Jun 2006, 16:46

Spirits. Angels and demons. They can't transubstantiate...Haven't you seen Constantine? :wink:
"The Church is the natural home of the Human Spirit."
-Hilaire Belloc
User avatar
Tony
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 435
Joined: Sep 2005
Location: Montréal, Québec, CA

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby robsia » 02 Jun 2006, 17:01

I assume you are talking to me.

No - I haven't seen Constantine - don't know what it is.

But, in the Bible, it is clear that angels have corporeal form - they can be mistaken for human beings:

Judges 13:16
The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD.)


Hebrews 13:2
Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.


They can hold and touch things and people:

Numbers 22:22-24

22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, she turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat her to get her back on the road.



Judges 6:21
With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread.


1 Kings 19:5
Then he lay down under the tree and fell asleep. All at once an angel touched him and said, "Get up and eat."


And most corporeal of all - they can copulate with human women:

Genesis 6
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal [b] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.



So it seems they CAN indeed take both physical and spiritual form. Of course, you can choose not to believe those bits of the Bible you don't like and say I'm wrong :wink:
User avatar
robsia
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3725
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Incognito no longer

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » 03 Jun 2006, 06:19

There are actually many scriptural reasons for believing that angels and demons are not pure spirit but one should be enough.

Jesus emphasized that God was spirit and because of that could not be seen. The deductive argument would run:

All things that are spirit are things that cannot be seen.
Angels are spirit,
Therefore, angels cannot be seen.
But angels can be seen.
Therefore, they cannot be pure spirit.

As for what ghosts are, the scriptures do not comment much on it.

When has there been a "proven spirits dweling?"

Why the assumption that ghosts can only be angels or deons?
WolfVanZandt
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Selma, Alabama

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby Warrior 4 Jesus » 03 Jun 2006, 08:41

I believe ghosts are evil spirits or in some instances angels.
They are spirits but I believe they can take human form if they choose.
Image

Member of The 2456317 Club
User avatar
Warrior 4 Jesus
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Australia

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » 03 Jun 2006, 09:08

Well, if your beliefis that Jesus was wrong when he said that spirit can't be seen, then I can understand why you might think that. But if spirits are invisible and angels are seen - even when they want to be - then they must not be pure spirit.

But I guess I should be asking - why do you think that angels (and demons) are pure spirit, and why do you think that ghosts are only demons or angels?
WolfVanZandt
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Selma, Alabama

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby WolfVanZandt » 03 Jun 2006, 09:20

You see I very much mistrust philosophy - the more convoluted it is, the more I mistrust it.....

because, if you trace the history of philosophy, you notice that it swings back and forth between extremes of rationalism (the idea that you can't know the world by experience but only by reason) to empericism (the idea that you can't know the world by pure reason but must have experience), to agnosticism (you can't know the world at all). The world obviously can't make up it's collective philosophical mind - why should I put my trust in this insanity?

It's driven by reaction, one generation reacts against the traditions of the past generation - it's like beards - they come and go.

And why anyone should see anything of virtue in that mental extravagance is beyond me.

Reality, as always, isn't at the extremes. If philosophy wants to make sense it will strive to find the correct balance between all the overblown "systems" of ontology ad epistemology and quit fooling around.

Please don't associate me with some established school of philosophy - it embarrasses me.
WolfVanZandt
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Selma, Alabama

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby Robert » 03 Jun 2006, 13:26

[I am] Freudian Viennese by night, by day [I am] Marxian Muscovite

--Robert Frost--
questions
User avatar
Robert
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Under the stars and in the midst of things

Re: re: ghosts and christianity

Postby Kolbitar » 03 Jun 2006, 13:37

::because, if you trace the history of philosophy, you notice that it swings back and forth between extremes of rationalism (the idea that you can't know the world by experience but only by reason) to empericism (the idea that you can't know the world by pure reason but must have experience), to agnosticism (you can't know the world at all). The world obviously can't make up it's collective philosophical mind - why should I put my trust in this insanity?

From Aristotle (384-322 BCE!) to Aquinas (1225-1274) to recent day Mortimer Adler, the Perennial Philosophy (Realism) has always walked the fine line between the aforementioned extremes.

The Basic Tenets of the Perennial Philosophy:

http://radicalacademy.com/philsummary.htm
User avatar
Kolbitar
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 654
Joined: Feb 2000
Location: Exile

Re: re: ghosts and christianity

Postby Robert » 03 Jun 2006, 13:50

Linda wrote:Interesting that you think of angels and demons as spirits. Reading the Bible, the descriptions of appearances of angels seem to clearly suggest that angels are physical beings as we are - they can even be mistaken for human beings - I remember a quote about being kind to strangers for you may be entertaining angels unaware.

As the inhabitants of hell are merely former angels, it would be logical to suppose that they are also physically identical to angels.


Yes, but unlike us, they are not visible ALL of the time, nor are they tangible all of the time.

This would suggest that they are not necessarily physical, but clearly are tangible and visible some of the time: Physical-being that condition of things which causes a thing to be potentially tangible and visible all of the time. So, physicality needn't imply a thing to be tangible and visible.

The distinction between physical and non-physical is one that comes from the tradition of Hellenistic metaphysics. In this school of thought, physical (an Aristotelian definition) refers to a thing's position in the universe as a a thing of, and thus in, motion. Of course, Aristotle's philosophy assumed that whatever was not 'in' this schema contributed in other ways (such as being a condition of things itself, i.e., abstract concepts and universals, or the forces that govern and sustain the processes of time, i.e., energy and the like).

However, Aristotelian metaphysics needn't be the only one. There are ancient metaphysical theories that oppose many of his views, such as, Parmenidian, Platonic-Pythagorean, Heraclitian, and so forth. These can be found in many modern theorists as Berkeley, Heidegger-Husserl, Bergson and others.

The rub is this, an angel need not be physical because he or she (it?) is tangible, unless, one suscribes to an Aristotelian (or similar theory-such as modern materialists and analytic philosophers).
[I am] Freudian Viennese by night, by day [I am] Marxian Muscovite

--Robert Frost--
questions
User avatar
Robert
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Under the stars and in the midst of things

re: ghosts and christianity

Postby robsia » 03 Jun 2006, 14:01

According to the Bible, God can hideangels from our view. In the story of Balaam's donkey, the donkey could see the angel but Balaam could not until "God opened his eyes".

But clearly, in the eyes of those who wrote the Bible, angels and presumably demons, can take both physical and non-physical form, although I have my own theories on that. There are tales of them smply disappearing from sight. But, again, that just means they could not be seen, not necessarily that they were not there - Balaam's donkey again.

But ghosts are in the image of dead people and cannot take physical form at will therefore ghosts and angels are not the same thing.

Unless ghosts are angels pretending to be dead people and in their non-corporeal form, which is odd. Why would they do that?
User avatar
robsia
Wardrobian
 
Posts: 3725
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Incognito no longer

Next

Return to Religion, Science, and Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered members and 0 guests

cron