Into the Wardrobe

sorry, another duplicate post...I guess that I've been out of action too long

Hi guys,
I've been letting posting overshadow my prayer life - during Lent - and need to cool down. I do want to respond - there is another thread where Postodave is waiting patiently for me - but the time swallowed is inappropriate for me right now.

In extreme brief, Adam, I agree with a lot of what you've said recently, even though there are, of course, differences. I don't champion the extreme cases you posit - equating the Church to God, for example. I would only suggest that the Scriptural view of the family does grant headship to the man and that God's love for us by wanting to take us into His "family" does not reduce Who He is. A photo I have somewhere of my family on a California beach - me with my arms around my wife, and her arms around my son's kind of illustrates it to an extent. Our inclusion into that is by the mercy and will of God. Trouble is, people brought up in today's world have been taught that this view of the secular family is somehow demeaning to women, somehow makes them "inferior" to men (and it is here that I think there is some breakdown in my analogy as well) - the fruits of modern feminist history (as distinct from the history of feminism) that I suspect underpin your objections to Orthodox views of men and women.

Bluegoat, a response from me on truth would be long and involved. Don't think I can boil it down without leaving some objection on your part. Your view of seeing unity and authority as being at odds is non sequitur to Orthodoxy. People who reject the authority are in schism and break the unity. It's that simple. But your understanding seems to be of a secular authority that needs to make political decisions based on pragmatics (you said, "in the practical world") and that that authority might have to choose one evil over another. if the institution really IS led by the Holy Spirit, you don't need to fear that. That is what you actually dispute, I think.

On submission, again, we need lots of words to clarify what we mean. The one thing it would seem you would deny is the freeedom and discernment to submit to Something far wiser and full of Truth than one's self. But again, that requires lots of words to clarify.

On Anglicanism - understood. But it's irrelevant to the OC, which denies that and doesn't help the people who do decide to leave the AC. I see the great tragedy as being the changes in the AC over the past 50 years that effectively ended Anglican-Orthodox rapprochement, and certainly, the increased authority of the individual to decide truth for himself has a lot to do with that (women priests and homosexuality are just a couple of the fruits of that).

On ad hominem attacks: the attack is by no means necessarily made out of hostility, but it does undeniably shift the focus from his argument and the question of whether it is true or not, to the man, and our subjective views of his personality. It is helpful in avoiding engagement with the basic question of 'true or false'. But your point on languages IS relevant in regards to what we see as authority. Your comment on the idea of Anglicanism that all churches are in schism is an example of that, and it has nothing to do with our personality types, and plenty to do with dogmatic positions. We must, of necessity talk apples and oranges because we do not agree on the authority - the source of the Faith.

And yes, we all see through a glass darkly, as far as what we, personally, know. But revealed Truth is something that we can be sure of - we must make the conscious choice to be sure of it - and it is called "faith", and these things we can be sure of. I may see through a glass darkly, but I am sure that God loves all of us and desires the salvation of all. By that same means, I am sure that the Orthodox Church is the unbroken and continual presence of THE Church of Christ. Not because I am so wise, but because what little wisdom, reason and experience I have has lead me to it, at which point I submitted myself completely, even on questions that I had doubts about or didn't "like"- Confession, the Theotokos, etc...

And THAT's extreme brief. I apologize I can't give your thoughts more attention now.

Hello all, new here and first post. I find this discussion very interesting to say the least.
I am Orthodox (not cradle, but converted,for background). But, here's the question. How does one determine who is right in these discussions. I guess it is a question of epistemology. Is what I believe to be right only a question of what "I" believe (as an Individual) or is it a question of what St. Vincent of Lerens said "Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus" what is has been believed "everywhere, always, and by all" (more a corporate, community belief).

My conversion, a long torturous, family splitting ordeal has been in my thoughts for a long time. I am curious as to God's working in our epistemology (how I (or we)know what I(we) know ) Unless God were to come down (and I am not sure that I would like it if he did) and reveal these truths to us.

I find very interesting Rus's quote
" "Eh? Two views? There are a dozen views about everything until you know the answer. Then there's never more than one."
Bill "The Blizzard" Hingest - That Hideous Strength"

The question is how we "know" the answer

-Guy