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Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby Tony » March 15th, 2006, 2:27 am

I talk about religion and spirituality with my friend, and though he believes that Jesus is the Messiah, he is not convinced of God being triune where Yeshua, the Annointed One, is the literal Son of God.

He's been trying to find evidence of the Trinity "existing" before St. Paul, but I don't see that as possible. Christ revealed himself to Paul pretty early on as far as I know, and if he did, why would Christ lie or leave Paul confused? Apparantly there "are references in the Gospel which you could kindaaaaaaaaa interpret as trinity-esque, but kinda stretching it, and only if you had the trinity in mind when reading them".

According to him, whether or not the Trinity was a part of the earliest Christian tradition, is debateable. I don't know my Church history, so I really wouldn't know how to approach a statement such as this. He rejects the trinity also because it "goes against Christ's teachings". (chuckle) "Christ called himself the Son of Man, not the Son of God, for a reason."

"Sometimes I call God Father also, that doesn't make him my literal father!"

"..Son of God as David was the Son of God, as Solomon, as Adam, by all means. [But not the literal Son of God.]"

"..he realised that his "true nature" was oneness with God, sure, but many mystics came to this realisation too. "I and the Father are One", said Christ, as well as many muslim, jewish, hindu and even christian mystics."


This has aroused my curiosity...What say you, O wise sages of the Ward Robe?

Off to dinner.
"The Church is the natural home of the Human Spirit."
-Hilaire Belloc
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re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby AllanS » March 15th, 2006, 2:55 am

An eternal lover must have a eternal object that is able to respond to the totality of that love. Both the lover and the beloved will be joined by the spirit of love. So either God is Trinity, or he is not the eternal lover.

In the same way, for God to be self-aware, there must be a self who's doing the looking and a self who's being looked at. And the spirit of knowledge joins them together.

None of this proves, of course, that Jesus is the Son of God. That can never be demonstrated. You accept it or you don't.

1+1=2 cannot be demonstrated, but once accepted, a whole universe of maths opens. In the same way, seeing God in the face of Jesus cannot be proved, but once accepted in heart and mind and life, a whole universe of hope opens.
Last edited by AllanS on March 15th, 2006, 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
“And turn their grief into song?" he replied. "That would be a gracious act and a good beginning."

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re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby A#minor » March 15th, 2006, 4:10 am

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Re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby Adam » March 15th, 2006, 5:24 am

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re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby WolfVanZandt » March 15th, 2006, 6:10 am

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Re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby Theo » March 15th, 2006, 9:08 am

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“First they came for Abdul Rahman and I spoke out because I was a Muslim. Then they came for the Palestinians and I raised hell because I was a Jew. Then they came for the Iraqis and I protested because I was an American. Then they came for the Muslims and I spoke out because I was a Christian, Then they came for the poor and I spoke out because I was rich. By the time they came for me, I had all the support a man could ask for.”
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re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby alecto » March 15th, 2006, 4:22 pm

There is a lot of Biblical evidence for unity of Christ and God, the chief of which is the beginning of the Gospel of John. But there is no evidence for bringing the Holy Spirit in on equal basis. I had heard when I was much younger that the Trinity was invented to rationalize worship of the Holy Spirit along with God and Christ in a world where at the same time Christians were arguing to polytheists that there was only one God, but I have never found written evidence for this by any ancient authors. In fact, I have read little that motivates belief in the Trinity, i.e. why this became so big an issue that bishops debated about it, though there are many existing letters arguing both points of view. Most of these ignore the strong Christ-Father unity evidence in the Bible because it always leaves the Holy Spirit out. Presumably they didn't want to provide their opponents with such an immediate chance for a reposte. For the most part, the Trinity is a kind of post-Biblical theory used to explain how the Divine Powers all relate to each other.

I have always wondered why some of the protestant churches (particularly the Baptists) have a doctrine of the Trinity, since it is non-Biblical, and they are always saying the Bible, not Catholic tradition, is the only source of spiritual truth. The Trinity was one of the first Roman Catholic traditions, meaning traditions specifically of Romans not shared necessarily by non-Roman Christians. For example, many Goths were Arians (followers of the doctrine of the Arius of Alexandria, who believed that Christ was the literal son of God, and therefore not the same as God) and it may be that this external pressure forced the bishops at Nicea to adopt a more Trinitarian position, though the idea of Trinity predates Arius.

It is apparently not true, as some say, that Constantine forced the council to adopt any part of the Creed, though he did ask for a single resolution partly for political reasons. He is supposed to have said: "it is thought to be not only indecorous, but altogether unlawful, that so numerous a people of God should be governed and directed at your pleasure, while you are thus emulously contending with each other, and quarrelling about small and very trifling matters." (This is from an Internet source without attribution, so I can't vouch for it.)

On another note, it is amazing how useful a little language knowledge can be. For example, messiah = Khristos (Christ) = anointed. They're all translations of each other. Adam has pointed out that amen = "truly". It is related to emunah, which in Hebrew is "good faith" or "steadfastness". Because Paul glosses this against pistis, which we translate as "faith", we can get another angle on what Paul means by faith.

"Son of Man" is God's title for Ezekiel. It first appears in Eze 1:28-2:3 after the fabulous vision of the Chariot of God:

"As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake. And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day."
Sentio ergo est.
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Re: re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby Josh » March 15th, 2006, 4:40 pm

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Re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby robsia » March 15th, 2006, 5:42 pm

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Re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby robsia » March 15th, 2006, 5:45 pm

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Re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby Theo » March 15th, 2006, 7:05 pm

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“First they came for Abdul Rahman and I spoke out because I was a Muslim. Then they came for the Palestinians and I raised hell because I was a Jew. Then they came for the Iraqis and I protested because I was an American. Then they came for the Muslims and I spoke out because I was a Christian, Then they came for the poor and I spoke out because I was rich. By the time they came for me, I had all the support a man could ask for.”
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re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby alecto » March 15th, 2006, 7:40 pm

This business about the Sons of God in Enoch started in Genesis as the reason for the Flood and it is part of Christian mythology, even though little of it is canon. Most of our details about "fallrn angels" started there, including the idea that Satan was a fallen angel, though the idea that Job's Satan, the serpent in the Garden, the chief Watcher (Greek Drakon) of Enoch and the Satan of the NT are the same came later. Milton's Paradise Lost is kind of the modern compilation of Enochian and post-Enochian angelic theories. Our entire idea of demonology uses the Sons of God story as a scaffold.

It works kind of like this (as discussed by a lot of ancient Christians, whom I am paraphrasing): the Sons of God are some kind of angel set over the World to watch over it, but they left their posts and begat children by human women. These children were great powers, both giant physically and mentally. They were what God flooded the earth to kill. But the flood only killed their gigantic bodies. Their spirits lived on, and these are the "evil demons" that possess people and which Christ on occasion drove out of them. On occasion, these demons also inflated the power of some man, or even an idol, granting him or it magical power that made him or it appear to be a god. This is the origin of the idol worship according to this myth.

Later church fathers, including Augustine, did not believe in the Sons of God as the source of demons, but I don't know what Augustine's own idea was on this. Probably this was because Paul believed that idolatry arose by mistaking part of creation for the Creator. The idea of evil demons who are fallen angels or their children has never left us though. It's alive and well in nearly everyone's belief system about how angels and devils work
Sentio ergo est.
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Re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby robsia » March 15th, 2006, 8:01 pm

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re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby WolfVanZandt » March 16th, 2006, 7:53 am

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Re: Jesus of Nazareth: Son of Man...Son of God?

Postby Theo » March 16th, 2006, 7:58 am

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“First they came for Abdul Rahman and I spoke out because I was a Muslim. Then they came for the Palestinians and I raised hell because I was a Jew. Then they came for the Iraqis and I protested because I was an American. Then they came for the Muslims and I spoke out because I was a Christian, Then they came for the poor and I spoke out because I was rich. By the time they came for me, I had all the support a man could ask for.”
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