The Truth Project (the question of evil)

[Shadowland Dweller]

Hey guys, I just wanted to repost this in a place where it would get some discussion :) There is a lot of stuff to branch off from, thats fine, I don't really want this post to remain true to anything except the topics listed really (so bunny-trails are fine :) )
One of the things I did want to discuss how a widespread belief of evolution has changed (for better or worse) the value of life.




PostPosted: Mon 02 Oct, 2006 Post subject: re: The Truth Project Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post [Mark post as unread]


Anyway, to the issue of evil, "what is evil"

The question really related to the claim of some who say that man is "inherently good" and if there is evidence for that claim.

We looked at the implications of a naturalistic philosophy, tied in the theory of "there is no right or wrong", the life people live when told that there is nothing beyond the grave, Maslow's hieracrchy of needs and if followed truly, what the consequences would be and are.

Some quotes from the class that stood out for me.

These are in context of the theory that man is nothing more than material (no spirit for life beyond death.

"A rat is a pig is a boy." Ingrid Newkirk

"The Finnish Green Party activist, Pentti Likola....goes so far as to say that he has more sympathy for threatened insect species than for children dying of hunger in Africa." cited in The New Tolerance

"While death of young men in war is unfortunate, it is no more serious than the touching of mountains and wilderness areas by humankind."
David Brower

"The purpose of man is like the purpose of a pollywog-to wiggle along as far as he can without dying;or, death takes him." cited in The Best of Humanism

*** the consequences for the above statements are mind-boggling!!!
Life doesn't hold much value.



One quote by Carl Rogers still has my head spinning in circles trying to see the "truth" in it, it seems that he talks out of both sides of his mouth on this one.

"For myself, though I am very aware of the incredible amount of destructive, cruel, malevolent behavior in today's world-from the threats of war to the senseless violence in the streets-I do not find that this evil is inherent in human nature"


****begs the question than, where DOES evil come from than?***

the answer from Carl Rogers is that "experience leads me to believe that it is cultural influences which are the major factor in our evil behaviors"

****but what makes a culture?***

The teacher addressed the issue of how some use the issue of evil to declare that there can't be a good god, how could he allow evil?
Often this stumps christians, we had to ask why. The teacher, Tackett told how we shouldn't be stumped, we, christians, have many answers for this really, it is those who believe in no god, or survival of the fittest, etc that really don't have an answer. The question to ask back he says, is, "why does evil bother you?" If this is a world where only the strong survive, there should be no bad feelings of hurting others, and if man is basically good, well than, YOU explain where evil comes from.

(sorry about the caps, I can't seem to bold or italic in the right places with the button :( )


Some questions I wrote for myself are:

**Why can't the world explain where evil comes from really?

** What evidence is there for the claim that man is basically good?

** In what areas have I accepted the worlds claims in exchange for God's claims?

** How do the biblical claims of the condition of man stack up with reality?

** Maslow says the ultimate goal is Self-Actualization (SA), what are the consequences of this lifestyle?

[Leslie]

[Mavramorn]

[alecto]

Be careful not to base your opinions of a whole group on the stupid statements of some who claim to belong to it. Remember that we could certainly find some really stupid people who call themselves Christians, quote them, and say "the thing I hate about Christians is. . . "

Remember that most environmentalists believe that killing trees, for example, leads to the death of children as surely as stabbing them in the heart, just not as quickly. The "right vs. left" problem in the US is terrible. One side focuses on human life directly, the other on the environment. If either is ignored, we all suffer. It's just a matter of how we suffer, and when.

[Mavramorn]

[wingedllama]

[Leslie]

There are some environmentalists with a fully naturalistic worldview, who see the human species on the same level as all other species. But I would say that many, probably most, environmentalists are deeply concerned about fellow humans. They want their children, and everyone's children, to live in a better, healthier environment.

There may be a perception that because an atheist can be an environmentalist, and may inform their environmentalism with atheistic philosophy, then all environmentalism is anti-Christian. This is clearly incorrect. There are many, many Christian environmentalists, as well as many of other theistic worldviews. A Christian environmentalist is deeply ashamed of the damage that humans have wrought on God's good creation. We see that when God gave us dominion over all the earth, God did not mean that we should ravage and lay waste to it and recklessly consume its bounty. We seek to be God's agents and stewards in restoring creation to health and beauty.

And environmentalists of any or no theological view can be economically or politically conservative. For example, here in Canada, the Green Party platform includes very conservative economic policies. Many people realize that in the long term, environmentalism makes good economic sense. Recently, Conservative Brian Mulroney was named the country's greenest prime minister.

[Karen]

[Shadowland Dweller]

I think christians, years back, would tend to shy away from the whole environmentalist movement because of the extreames they would see, people chaining themselves to trees, protesting in illegal ways, and generally seeming to value the life of a plant or animal more than the life of say an unborn child. These issues came to light for me at the same time in my life, so I know I was turned off to anything having to do with environmental types for the longest time. I still get frustrated when I see people around here gather to protest or support just about any cause except the abortion and the value of human life. I live in a wonderful valley that takes pride in supporting the environment, local farmers, sustainable growth and farming, holistic health, etc, and I am part of that suppport.



Leslie, I was not refering to anyone here in the warbdrobe with my first post. My first post did imply that, to believe in evolution means one is "amoral", I was trying to word it delicately, I am not the best at that though. I know how you and some others in here feel and I was not trying to offend, in my mind I was addressing the my notes, which draws a clear line between christians and non-believers. I am sorry if it offended.




I guess the quotes about human life being less important than that of an endangered insect, or the one about a pig is a rat is a boy, were still ringing round in my brain. I wasn't trying to bring up the issue (again) of who should believe in evolution, but rather, evolution seems to be hard core now, (even though much has never been proven and laughable by many learned men and women) and seems to me, with ALL references to God out of the picture (they don't teach what some in the wardrobe believe) it seems like life is pointless and I can see how easily one would resort to living recklessly, commiting suicide, murder, etc. If there is nothing after this life, and the only reason we are here is to live, well, that carries some heavy consequences.

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[Leslie]

[Barbara]

[Pastafarian]

[Shadowland Dweller]

[Pastafarian]

[Kolbitar]