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JRosemary

JRosemary

Postby Ana » December 29th, 2006, 11:53 pm

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Postby JRosemary » December 30th, 2006, 4:12 am

Hi Ana!

Here's some random thoughts for you, which will hopefully explain why I'm not comfortable with the imagery of Jesus as the paschal lamb:

Just last week, at Torah study (which, at my synagogue, takes place just before Saturday morning services begin) we mentioned the paschal lamb. Here's how it came about.

Some how or other we got on the subject of the Temple, and one fellow mentioned that he'd like to see it rebuilt. "Do you agree?" he asked me.

"Ah, that would start World War III," I said at once. (There is, after all, a rather important mosque on the site right now.)

"Not necessarily!" he said. "Actually, we could rebuild it without disturbing the mosque. The two could exist side by side."

*Insert long discussion on the precise location of the Holy of Holies.*

"But what would you do with it?" I asked. "What do we need the Temple for? Does anyone seriously want to go back to animal sacrifice?" (That was pretty much what the Temple was used for. Animal sacrifices ended after the Romans destroyed the Temple.)

"Yeah," someone else agreed. "It'd just be a glorified synagogue. And we've already got Temple Emanu-el for that." (She was referring to the famous synagogue in Manhattan.)

"Oh, I don't know," the first man said. "We could have grain offerings."

I considered the idea of grain offerings. "Well," I said thoughtfully, "I suppose that would give the Kohanim something to do." (The hereditary priests of Judaism, that is. They used to be responsible for performing the sacrifices at the Temple.)

"Yeah," someone else laughed. "Otherwise they just hang out on street corners and cause trouble."

"I can't imagine having animal sacrifices," someone else put in. "Although some of those sacrifices were sin offerings, weren't they? That must have been convenient."

Another woman shrugged. "I suppose that's where Christianity got the idea of Jesus dying as a sacrifice for sins. Although I think they identify him with the paschal lamb."

"They do," I said, making a face. "I don't want Jesus dying for my sins--yuck! That's human sacrifice."

"Oh, we don't hold with human sacrifice," one of the others said soothingly. "I think that's the whole point of the Abraham-Isaac story. Didn't they just sacrifice a dove or something for a sin offering?"

I shrugged. "Well, I don't want a dove dying for my sins either. I don't want Jesus dying for my sins, I don't want a dove dying for my sins--I don't want any person or any animal dying for my sins!"

"Well, that still leaves grain offerings," the first man noted. "And, as you said, we really ought to give the Kohanim something to do."

"Yup," someone else agreed with a wink. "We've got to keep them off the streets."

The conversation turned from there, but I thought about it later. Most of my family is Irish Catholic, so I grew up surrounded by the Catholic mythos. I know that it's powerful and I know that it can transform lives--but I also know that it's not for me.

I find the notion of Jesus as paschal lamb repulsive--he's wasn't a lamb, he was a nice Jewish boy. And Judaism has no place for human sacrifice.

It doesn't make it any better to have people insist that Jesus was somehow God. No orthodox Christian denies that he was still also human.

I've attended many, many Masses and I've listened to the priest say, "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us; therefore let us keep the feast." I understand why Christians use that imagery and why it's powerful.

Most Christians, after all, believe that humans are born corrupt--this is what original sin means. Jesus, as the lamb of God, gives himself as a perfect sacrifice so that people can be crucified with him and reborn with his nature. ("I have been crucified with Christ and now it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives within me," says Paul.)

As I mentioned, that's a powerful mythos and I can understand how it can transform a person's life. However, I have serious issues with it.

Judaism has no concept of orginal sin--most Jews believe in original goodness. God created us good. You don't need to die and be reborn because you weren't born corrupt--there's nothing wrong with your fundamental nature. We may be in the habit of sinning--but that's all it is, habit. And habits can be broken. One of the ways to break the bad habit of sin is by following the mitzvot (the commandments.)

(Which is not to say that I'm personally successful in following all the mitzvot--witness the fact that I'm posting on Shabbat! :blush: I doubt I'll ever be fully observant, but I'm getting better at it.)

At any event, since Judaism doesn't have this concept of orginal sin, the concept of sacrifice is quite different in Judaism than it is in Christianity. It never had the same significance for Judaism--which is why, even after the Romans destroyed the Temple, Judaism continued to thrive.

So there are my reasons for not regarding Jesus in light of a paschal lamb. Let me add that I'm speaking just for myself--I'm not telling Christians to abandon the notion.

Shabbat shalom (Have a peaceful Sabbath),

~Rosemary

(Oh, btw, Kohanim is pronounced ko-hah-NEEM; mitzvot is pronounced mitz-VOTE; and Shabbat is pronounced sha-BAHT. This is just a rough idea, of course :wink: )
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Postby Kolbitar » December 30th, 2006, 4:21 pm

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby JRosemary » December 30th, 2006, 7:09 pm

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Postby Kolbitar » December 30th, 2006, 7:50 pm

Hi Rose.

::Thank you for your thoughtful reply. As I respond to it, remember again that I'm only offering you my opinion. I'm not saying that Christainity is wrong--only that it's wrong for me. I'm going to emphasize this point right from the start, because it's so important to me.

But you’re emphasizing your point which starts with an assumption that my belief is wrong. In other words, you’re assuming that my belief in Christianity as a historical fact intended for everyone is invalid, consequently confining it to the level of poetry or myth, and then telling me that as a myth it’s not wrong. But you can only tell me you don’t think it’s wrong in the second sense by first affirming that it is wrong in the first sense (the sense in which I believe it’s right), for you reduce what I think is a fact to a myth. You’re free, of course, to affirm that you think it’s wrong in the first sense; but logic allows no such freedom to affirm the second sense, as you state it, without denying the first.

I just want to make sure we’re clear on this before I reply to the more interesting responses...

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby JRosemary » December 30th, 2006, 8:22 pm

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Postby Ana » December 30th, 2006, 8:47 pm

JRosemary

Hi :smile:

You were talking about the sin offering of animals not being sacrificed anymore. Since we all sin, why would those stop? What do you do about sin now?

Can you tell me what you believe about the Messiah that you believe has not come yet?

The following verses for Christians, perfectly describe Jesus. What do you believe about these verses?

Isaiah 53

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

.
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Postby Adam » December 30th, 2006, 9:07 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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Postby JRosemary » December 30th, 2006, 9:12 pm

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Postby Adam » December 30th, 2006, 9:17 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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Postby JRosemary » December 30th, 2006, 9:34 pm

Last edited by JRosemary on December 30th, 2006, 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby JRosemary » December 30th, 2006, 9:36 pm

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Postby JRosemary » December 30th, 2006, 9:57 pm

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Postby Adam » December 30th, 2006, 9:59 pm

Last edited by Adam on December 31st, 2006, 1:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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Postby Adam » December 30th, 2006, 10:04 pm

"Love is the only art that poorly imitates nature."
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