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For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby jo » September 21st, 2005, 10:26 am

"I saw it begin,” said the Lord Digory. “I did not think I would live to see it die"

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Postby Robin » September 21st, 2005, 3:54 pm

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Re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby hammurabi2000 » September 21st, 2005, 6:54 pm

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Re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby magpie » September 22nd, 2005, 4:08 pm

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Postby mjmann » September 22nd, 2005, 4:09 pm

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Postby mjmann » September 22nd, 2005, 4:33 pm

Hello John,

First of all, thank you for your compliment. However, let me say that I do not account myself an authoritative teacher of Catholicism. One should go to a priest, licensed theologian or to the documents themselves for an authoritative explanation of the faith.

Concerning anathemas. I would encourage you to read the following explanation from Catholic.com. In short, it explains what anathemas really were (not judgements of men's souls) and what it is no longer now (valid). .
If you have any other questions thereafter, I'd be happy to reply.

Malcolm
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Postby John Anthony » September 22nd, 2005, 8:32 pm

Thanks for the link to that article, Malcolm. It conveyed to me a rather different understanding of anathema than I got from the Catholic encyclopedia. I ‘ve mostly reconciled the two, but still I think that the author of the catholic.com article rather glosses over the harshness of anathematizing in earlier times. Here’s what the encyclopedia says about the anathematizing of a particular person:

‘Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication: minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope. In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."’ (Boldface added)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

Certainly the anathematizing of a particular person, as described here, was much more than just an assertion that the person’s doctrine is wrong. It seems as if the impersonal anathematizing found in conciliar canons was less harsh in its attitude towards those offenders which it identifies in a general way. But I’m not sure.

In fairness, and for the benefit of the very few in this forum who are following our discussion, I’ll quote some passages from the catholic.com article which I found interesting:

‘Yet the penalty was used so seldom that it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This means that today the penalty of anathema does not exist in Church law.

‘The anathemas of Trent and other councils were like most penalties of civil law, which only take effect through the judicial process. If the civil law prescribes imprisonment for a particular offense, those who commit it do not suddenly appear in jail. Likewise, when ecclesiastical law prescribed an anathema for a particular offense, those who committed it had to wait until the judicial process was complete before the anathema took effect.

‘6. Anathemas applied to all Protestants. The absurdity of this charge is obvious from the fact that anathemas did not take effect automatically. The limited number of hours in the day by itself would guarantee that only a handful of Protestants ever could have been anathematized. In practice the penalty tended to be applied only to notorious Catholic offenders who made a pretense of staying within the Catholic community.

‘Because the penalty has been abolished, a word should be said about the status of the conciliar canons that employed this penalty. In addition to prescribing the imposition of a juridical penalty, the phrase anathema sit ("let him be anathema") also came to be one of the phrases that the Church traditionally has used to issue doctrinal definitions.

‘Catholic scholars have long recognized that when an ecumenical council applies this phrase to a doctrinal matter, then the matter is settled infallibly. (If a council applied the phrase to a disciplinary matter, then the matter would not be settled infallibly, since only matters of doctrine, not discipline, are subject to doctrinal definition.)

‘Thus, when Trent and other ecumenical councils employed anathema sit in regard to doctrinal matters, not only was a judicial penalty prescribed but a doctrinal definition was also made. Today, the judicial penalty may be gone, but the doctrinal definition remains. Everything that was infallibly decided by these councils is still infallibly settled.

‘This has consequences under current canon law. Those things that are both divinely revealed by God and proposed as such by the Church cannot be obdurately denied or doubted without the offense of heresy (CIC [1983] 751). Heresy does carry a penalty of automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication (can. 1041, 2º), though this does not apply to those who have never been members of the Catholic Church (can. 11), and even then there is a significant list of exceptions (can. 1323).’

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0004chap.asp

Regards,

John
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Postby hana » September 23rd, 2005, 2:25 am

previously on the list as hapahana/hanachiyo/hannah. joined in early '99.
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Postby John Anthony » September 23rd, 2005, 3:04 am

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Postby mjmann » September 26th, 2005, 6:10 pm

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Postby mjmann » September 26th, 2005, 6:30 pm

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re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby Donna » September 27th, 2005, 2:51 pm

Blessings
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Re: re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby mjmann » September 27th, 2005, 6:06 pm

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re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby robsia » September 27th, 2005, 8:08 pm

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Re: re: For Malcom (or anyone) Catholicism, Protestantism

Postby hammurabi2000 » September 28th, 2005, 9:36 pm

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