Hi Rusmeister :)
I definitely do not support relavitism or pluralism, and neither does my church (my pastor once said that there is no 'our way', only God's way, and the only way to Him is through Jesus Christ). But since it's faith in Christ that saves us, not a style of worship or a tradition, I'm willing to accept different traditions among Christians. What truly matters is how we are to God and to others..the Pharisees had all the right laws and traditions, yet Jesus said that they have no love for God in their hearts because they did not believe in Him. Of course it's good to have traditions and to belong to a church and to have faith in what is taught there..God meant for us to be one Body..and it's very important to recognize and avoid false doctrine. But which one of us has full understanding of God's ways?
If we see a fellow Christian sinning, we should help them in a loving way. If we see false doctrine, we should avoid it. The Bible says that if someone teaches a different gospel than the one we have heard from the beginning, it is incorrect. But I’ve seen people go into big arguments because one considers the other’s worship style ‘wrong’. Isn’t this what Paul was talking about in Romans 14 (only he was talking about ‘clean’ and ‘unclean’ food)? “Therefore let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men”. (Romans 14: 13- 18). If something does not lead to sin, we should not criticize it. I don’t believe that there is a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ worship style, and although I know which one I prefer, I don’t really care if a person likes the Liturgy, singing hymns, or contemporary songs. This also goes for traditions and other external things. I’ve seen people go into huge arguments about these things. It’s important to be sure of what you believe and not doubt, but peace is also important. Any type of worship is good as long as its in spirit and in truth, and anyway we should primarily worship God through our actions and by how we live.
By the way, I’m not at all accusing you of being a ‘stumbling block’! I hope it doesn’t sound like I am. Our conversation on this forum has been a learning experience, and I’m looking more into the Orthodox Church and feel more accepting of it than before. I mentioned Romans 14 as a response to what you said about pluralism. Pluralism is only bad if it prevents us from glorifying God (for example, believing that Christ is not the only way to salvation).
“Your answer to my previous question seems to be mostly #2 (self), with a #1 element (authority) referred to in what your local church teaches.”
I really do believe that sometimes the Holy Spirit helps me interpret the Bible. Of course I’ve made mistakes in the past and have relied on my own mind – quite frequently. But if I ask God for wisdom, how is this taking myself as authority? Isn’t this taking God as authority? I also listen to others’ interpretations, I read books, I go to church, etc. But in the end, no matter what I hear I try to find out what God says about it. The Church is made up of imperfect humans, and therefore can (and does) make mistakes. Do you fully rely on the teachings of the Church Fathers? I am certain that they were better Christians than I am, but they were still human, so I pray about what I read.
“the individualism is rarely ‘taught’ as such openly – except for things like references to a ‘personal’ Savior”
How do you interpret the idea of a ‘personal’ Savior?
To me, this means that we can have a direct, personal relationship with God. That when we are saved, we are transformed just by knowing Him. This whole idea of a 'personal' Savior has helped me grow in faith, be a better Christian, and be more committed to God. He seemed far away before but now I know that He loves each one of us and that I became His when I accepted Christ by faith.
Of course it's possible to realize all these things without this idea! In the end it's God who draws us to Himself. But it has really helped me. And from my experience, it's not individualistic. A 'personal' relationship with God does not exclude others, it draws them in! The closer I am to God, the more I want to share His love and light with others, and the more I want to deny myself to follow Him. It's not easy to do what God asks, and when I try to do it on my own strength I fail. But this 'personal relationship' has helped me be closer to God, and this helps me serve Him. It has helped me experience His love, and isn't this what enables us to put Him first in our life? Isn't this why the martyrs gave up their lives rather than deny Jesus? From my experience, God is not 'impersonal' at all.
I'm just trying to say that this idea helped me to know God better, and it's not individualistic because it's impossible to be individualistic when you're with Him. When you define yourself based on your relationship with God, all relationships are affected...the 'personal' part just shows that it's a close one on one sort of relationship, but this doesn't make it individualistic cause it's with God.
"Are any Christian denominations at all pretty much or totally off-base?"
I think that anything that teaches a different gospel and a different Christ than the Bible is a false teaching. If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again from death, and if you are committed to following Him and obeying Him, you are on the 'narrow' path... whoever is willing to believe these things is willing to accept Christ, and He does not drive away anyone who comes to Him (John 6: 37). It is faith that's important, not necessarily understanding, because it shows trust and reliance on God. Faith allows us to open our hearts to God, and by this He changes us and helps us do good deeds. By this, we please Him. The Pharisees had a great amount of knowledge and correct doctrine, yet their hearts were in the wrong place.
"A counter-question - are some Protestant faiths wrong? Or at least less correct than others?"
I do not believe that any of us has the whole Truth, so we are all wrong about something or other. If we knew and understood everything we would be God. But even if your understanding of theology isn't perfect, if you try to obey God out of love, I believe He accepts this as faithful service. In the end it's the heart that matters. I imagine that a person who
only knows that Jesus saved them, but fully believes and lives a life of selfless love; is closer to God than someone who knows all the theology in the world but never actually lives it. So it may well be that some denominations are less correct than others, but God doesn't judge us based on labels, and it's not up to me to say who is more correct. In the end, what matters is..do we worship God, or something else.
"Also, a very strong point in the article was about the general lack of reference to the Holy Trinity (outside of, say, Baptism). I'd be interested in your comments on that! "
You're right, the Holy Trinity is not mentioned all that much in the church I go to. It's mostly assumed (we do believe in it). The pastor mentioned the words 'the Trinity' a couple of times in sermons, and some of the worship songs mentioned it too. But that's about it. I wish there was more about the Holy Trinity :( I like what the author of that article said about it. However, it's mentioned implicitly quite a bit, because the pastor frequently talks about Jesus being the Son of God and being one with the Father, and there was a sermon on the role of the Holy Spirit.
"In the end, if I have doubts about a Church teaching, for me the Church is right and I am wrong. "
I have the same attitude towards the Bible. If it is saying something I can't understand, or even something that seems strange to me, I try to accept it anyway. I believe that understanding comes from faith more than faith comes from understanding. We can only understand spiritual things if we are spiritual people.
I fully accept the Bible because I believe it to be inspired by God. I also believe that God works in the Church and is present in her by the Holy Spirit. But I don't always accept everything the Church teaches because how do I know if a teaching was given by God, or not? There were many false teachers in the early Church, even during the times of the Apostles. When the Apostles died, some corrupted teachings might have become popular. So I evaluate everything by the Bible, because it doesn't change (except a bit in translation). If I disagree with something the Church teaches, I try to determine if my view is from God, or from myself. If it's my own, I take the Church teaching. If I know it's from God, I choose Him. After all, we all have the Holy Spirit, not only the Bishops. But in the spirit of Romans 14,
if you fully accept everything the Church teaches, I would not tell you to change your mind. I pray that God would guard both of us from any false teaching or deception.
Thanks for the links :)
I agree with what you wrote about 'access', especially what you said about living as true Christians. Concerning the Liturgy, I believe that God is present there, but I believe He is present in other forms of corporate (and private) worship as well...as long as He is worshipped, He is there.
Sorry this is so long, wow.
a lot of what I said could be summarized in this way:
"It is in the process of being worshipped that God communicates His presence to men."
--Reflections on the Psalms, CS Lewis
Without God, everything turns bad. With God, anything becomes good. The question is not.. are certain traditions good or bad? But…when you follow them, do they lead you closer to God, or not? “by their fruits you shall know them”. Since there are strong Christians in all churches, it follows that God is present in any church that believes in Him. For we can not become strong Christians without His help.