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Protestants welcome… a fictional dialogue.

Protestants welcome… a fictional dialogue.

Postby Kolbitar » October 24th, 2006, 10:10 pm

Protestants welcome… a fictional dialogue.

The following is an open ended response to a snippet from Josh which I would like to extend to all Protestants. I begin by making some points, then I embody some of those points in the beginning of a fictional dialogue which I do not conclude, but leave open. I am curious to see how a Protestant might continue the dialogue given the points which precede the open end. I know how a Catholic could respond, could conclude, and I will eventually give that conclusion; first, however, I’d like to leave it open for a week or two and see what Protestant responses may come.

::My point here was that Roman Catholics engage in the same sort of tautology in claiming infallibility of Church that protestants do in claiming inspiration of scripture, only that the Roman church shifts the emphasis from revealed Word to man.

What does Scripture's claim to inspiration rely upon in order to avoid circular reasoning (historical reliability assumed)? In other words, why should we believe it? Because Paul said so? who's Paul to say so? He may, after all, be sincerely wrong.

I'd submit that the only foundation upon which we find precedent for accepting it's otherwise circular truth claim is the same foundation upon which Catholics find precedent for accepting the equal authority of the Church's role -- through tradition and the teaching magesterium -- in interpreting and bringing into perspicuity sacred Scripture: the recorded words of the person of Jesus who speaks to our need for him in our very, fallen, nature. In other words, the extent to which we find that Jesus meets our inherent need for atonement with God is the extent to which his recorded words have binding authority upon us; we must, therefore, look first to those words and when we do I believe we find that the additional Catholic claim rests hand in hand with the -- otherwise singular -- Protestant claim.

So, let’s say a non-Christian was challenging not the historical reliability of Scripture, but, in the same way a Protestant charges that Roman Catholicism’s Tradition and Teaching Authority (interpretive authority) are man made, was challenging the divine inspiration of Scripture. He says something like this, “Jesus was a good man, and I grant that he thought he was God, but he didn’t even write a single word of Scripture; Scripture was written by men, mostly good men, to be sure, but Scripture was none the less man made not God breathed.”

“Well,” you retort, “Scripture itself claims that it was God breathed.”

“But you beg the question,” he responds, “for I say that the claim itself is a man made claim. How will you prove to me it’s not?”

“Hmm, well we both accept the historical reliability of Scripture, is that correct?”

“Yes.”

“And we both accept that Jesus said he was God, correct?”

“Yes.”

“And do you believe Jesus’ claim?”

“Well, that’s irrelevant to the question right now, for I’d be happy if you could simply reduce the claim of the Inspiration of Scripture to the person of Jesus himself, then the claim would be at least as good as Jesus’ claim to divinity. The basis for accepting his claim to divinity is another question.”

“Indeed it is another question, but, as an aside I’d like to quickly say that C.S. Lewis has almost adequately addressed this question of Christ’s claim, though he perhaps left some loose ends which Peter Kreeft has flawlessly tied off -- at least to my mind. Anyway, back to the point: what you’re saying is that we must find a basis for the divine inspiration of Scripture in the recorded words of Christ himself?”

“Well, I guess that is what I’m saying.”

“_____..."
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Karen » October 24th, 2006, 10:26 pm

This is the first thing that leaps to mind:

Luke 24:44-47 Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things."

By 'Scriptures', Jesus is of course referring to the OT, but what is 'written' points to events that would be recorded in the NT.
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Postby Kolbitar » October 25th, 2006, 12:19 am

::By 'Scriptures', Jesus is of course referring to the OT, but what is 'written' points to events that would be recorded in the NT.

Hi Karen. Are you saying we can infer from this the inspiration of the New Testament? And if so, how?

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

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Postby Karen » October 25th, 2006, 12:55 am

I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library. -- Jorge Luis Borges
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Postby Caesario » October 25th, 2006, 3:12 am

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Postby Kolbitar » October 29th, 2006, 1:44 pm

Hey Caesario.

::I think that would be impossible since it was the Church and the people in it that compiled existing traditions regarding Christ that made up the books of the NT (or atleast the historical books).

Then that must be subject to the same criteria my dialogue is seeking for the inspiration of New Testament Scripture. Does this, "the Church and the people in it that compiled existing traditions regarding Christ that made up the books of the NT" proceed from the authority of Christ, come directly from the words of Christ?

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby Kolbitar » October 29th, 2006, 1:56 pm

::Not the whole thing, but I think you could certainly make an argument for the Gospels. Jesus does seem to be pointing to the inspiration of the OT (the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms is shorthand for the entire Tanakh), and he talks repeatedly in all four Gospels about Scripture being fulfilled through him. If the recorded prophecy is inspired, surely the recorded fulfillment may be as well?

The idea that the records of Christ, as he fulfilled the Old, must be equally Inspired is interesting. However, if my point is that the New Testament in it's entirety must have some basis for our belief in it's inspiration from the very person of Christ -- assuming historic reliability of the records -- then the point is, unfortunately, rather moot. For I've already accepted the words of Christ in the Gospel as authroitative in so far as they speak to my need for Christ's atonement. It's what follows in the Acts and Epistles, you see, that are the relevant materials in question...

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby Josh » November 2nd, 2006, 2:13 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

--John Calvin
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Postby WolfVanZandt » November 4th, 2006, 8:32 am

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Postby Kolbitar » November 4th, 2006, 11:23 am

The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby Josh » November 4th, 2006, 4:28 pm

ecclesia semper reformata, semper reformanda.

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Postby Kolbitar » November 4th, 2006, 5:06 pm

Hi Josh.

::But the circularity is still there. How do you know about the person of Christ, about what he said?
::The Bible.

That doesn't mean it's inspired. I can know a lot about what Plato said without believing in inspiration. Besides, the earliest Christians heard about Christ, they did not read about him in a nicely packaged Bible. Historical reliablity is the only thing upon which the link between my need for Christ and believing the claims of the person of Jesus now relies. Pauls Epistles, for instance, may claim all the authority they wish, but unless they tie into Christ by Christ's own precedent -- then so what? Paul, after all, could have been mistaken, or perhaps was speaking in hyperbole... yet the historical reliability of Christ's claim would still remain valid.

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby WolfVanZandt » November 4th, 2006, 8:13 pm

But without personal knowledge of Christ as a real, living person how can you know that the historical claims are valid. After all, the church itself could have written the whole thing (they've produced enough history as it is to strengthen their political power). The few extraBiblical claims of Jesus' existence only prove that He existed and was executed.

Without personal knowledge of the Holy Spirit, the Bible, the church, everything falls apart. Christianity is a mystic religion and without the miraculous and the mystic, it has no claims.
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Postby Kolbitar » November 5th, 2006, 11:32 am

Hi Wolf.

::But without personal knowledge of Christ as a real, living person how can you know that the historical claims are valid.

You can't, I'll be the first one to stress the testing of Christ's claims by having a relationship with him.

::After all, the church itself could have written the whole thing (they've produced enough history as it is to strengthen their political power). The few extraBiblical claims of Jesus' existence only prove that He existed and was executed.

You're losing me Wolf, I don't understand what any of this has to do with what I'm saying unless you're merely seeking my affirmation.

::Without personal knowledge of the Holy Spirit, the Bible, the church, everything falls apart. Christianity is a mystic religion and without the miraculous and the mystic, it has no claims.

I agree, and it all starts with Christ's claim to heal us of our sin, and an acknowledgement that we need such healing. However, though I believe Scripture is inspired, and that I must follow Jesus, it is no argument to say that because Jesus claimed divinity as a historical fact, and one can test this and have a mystical relationship with him, then the Scriptures we have and call the New Testament are mystically inspired.

Thanks,

Jesse
The man who lives in contact with what he believes to be a living Church is a man always expecting to meet Plato and Shakespeare tomorrow at breakfast. He is always expecting to see some truth that he has never seen before. --Chesterton

Sober Inebriation: http://soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/
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Postby WolfVanZandt » November 5th, 2006, 11:38 am

It is if He authenticates their inspiredness.
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